DLC Map Critique (DLC39)

[KeldorKatarn]

Finally started the GC DLCs and having great fun so far. I noticed a few peculiarities with the scenarios however and I just thought I'd mention them and ask for the reason for these inconsitencies, be it gameplay balancing or just 'for fun'. This is not meant as a 'Hey wtf you got this wrong!' thread, it is just meant as a thread to point out these things and also to use the opportunity and give people a better understanding of the scenarios and where they actually take place.

I'm going to reserve a post for each scenario in a DLC that I'll play so the answers and the possible discussion don't rip apart the map posts.

[KeldorKatarn]

Starting with:

Poznan

The first thing I though was: When did we send Panzer Divisions towards Posen? Well, from my sources we never did, at least not from this direction (more on that below) so I consider this one fictional, but nice nevertheless. (Any comments on this? From what I know only border guard forces advanced here, no armored forces were deployed in this region)

Then there are a few map problems:

Poznan.jpg (213.33 KiB) Viewed 6802 times

Wrzesnia (or German Wreschen) seems to be in the wrong place. Also Cottbus is missing. Those are not really big deals. What confuses me however is:

Why are Legnica(Liegnitz), Wroclaw (Breslau) and Jelenia Góra (Hirschberg) is Polish posession? Those were German cities at this time and they never switched hands. Only after 1945 they got these names and were annexed by modern-day Poland.
Same about Zielona Góra (Grünberg in Schlesien). This one never became Polish before 1945). The German forces did not have to cross the Oder at Frankfurt. They were already east of it.

Also as seen on this map:

Poznan - Oder.jpg (176.29 KiB) Viewed 6802 times

The Oder river is not correct. The southern part of the river in the scenario map is actually the Lausitzer Neiße, the river that is the border of modern day Germany. When you hover over that part of the river the info still says "Oder river" however. That is not where the Oder is flowing, The oder is going east towards Wroclaw (Breslau). Also the Warthe river is not exactly flowing correctly but that one is close enough I guess.

So.. why does Germany have modern day Germany's boders in this scenario? Also, I personally would consider it more historically correct if cities that are or have been in German posession use the German names on these maps. After all we are in command of German forces and they wouldn't use the polish names on their maps. heck Guderian was born in one of these cities and he wouldn't use the Polish name (Let alone the fact that some of the polish names on this particular map didn't exist before 1945)

So the name should be Breslau, not Wroclaw and Liegnitz, not Legnica. But it might be a convention of you guys, to use the names of the language that posesses the cities at scenario start, which is fine. But then you messed up Danzig

On the positive side: Most cities are placed very exact in relation to eachother as you can see on the maps.

All in all a fun opening scenario, despite these peculiarities Danzig corridor discussion coming up next

Looking forward to hearing comments about why this scenario was designed as it is

As for anyone interested where this takes places exactly:

Poznan - Location.jpg (225.05 KiB) Viewed 6800 times

Peace impressions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... norama.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 5%84_1.jpg

[KeldorKatarn]

Danzig Corridor - South

Ok here we go:

Danzig Corridor.jpg (128.43 KiB) Viewed 6763 times

Most cities seem to be pretty much at the right place. Bytów (Bütow) seems a bit off to the east though.
Direchau should be called Dirschau and is now called Tczew and therefore not only called wrong but also in the completely wrong place.
That city on the map should probably be called Kościerzyna (Berent), for which the location fits.
Kwidzyn (Marienwerder) seems to be roughly correct. But with this and Danzig it starts to be confusing whether the Polish or German name is used. There doesn't seem to be a real system on this map.

Schneidemühl (Pila) is completely wrong though it seems. especially since there is a Pila and a Schneidemühl on the map... that's two names for the same city. Of those two Pila is in the correct location. Schneidmühl however should be either Złocieniec (Falkenburg) or Czaplinek (Tempelburg) it seems.

Also Jastrow is too far north. Jastrowie is further south.

The rest seems to be fine except the Warthe is missing on this map? And near the north the flow of the river is a bit off.

Danzig Corridur - Weichsel.jpg (61.96 KiB) Viewed 6763 times

And again, I think no forces ever arrived from this direction to engage here. But if they were, then those auxiliary forces in the north might be Guderians forces actually (From what I remember from his book, he was showing Hitler around on 5th of September after the Battle of Tuchola Forest)

Again nice map but here the mix of German and Polish names was really confusing.

As for the general location:

Danzig Corridor - Location.jpg (225.12 KiB) Viewed 6763 times

Peace impressions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sciola.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... otlawa.JPG

[KeldorKatarn]

Lodz

In Łódź most cities at first seem to be pretty correctly located. In the northeast of Lodz the distances are a little distorted, but otherwise things seem to be fine. The Jeziorsko lake is also at the right position it seems.

Lodz.jpg (166.42 KiB) Viewed 6536 times

In the south however things become a little strange. Piotrków Trybunalski (Petrikau) and Tomaszów Mazowiecki (Tomaschow-Mazowiecki) seem to be a little off. And the city to their south-west is Zelow? That citiy is much closer and further north. A city that might fit would be Radomsko or maybe even Częstochowa (Tschenstochau). And in the far southwest, the starting position, is that really Kraszewice (Schöngrunden)? That seems a little small and also not really at the crossing of that road network. That should rather be Grabów nad Prosną (Grabow, Altwerder) I think.

The Bzura river seems to flow rather close to the orginal, but again the Warta is missing... it is flowing through that lake on the map you know and is the larger river compared to the Bzura.

Everything considered, this scenario is probably the first scenario close to a real battle, the Battle of the Bzura. There are some possibilities what the forces could represent. The polish are certainly the Armies Pomorze and Poznań which have assembled here to attack the flank of the advancing German 8th army. That is probably us. We are in clear danger of being outflanked from the north while advancing to the east. No originally we would get help by the 4th army from north and west, making the encirclement complete with help from the southeast from the 10th army which offered lots of tanks and mobile forces.

Lodz - Battle.jpg (246.2 KiB) Viewed 6536 times

The 10th army, considering its composition, could be the auxiliary forces on this map. Lots of tanks and mobile forces. Even though they are at first in a rough spot. Considering the few units however they might also just be other units of the 8th army, which have advanced in front of us and ran into the outflanking polish units. The 10th army is probably further to the south. We are however definately part of the 8th army. The 4th army does not seem to materialize on this map either, but can be considered to be located a bit north of this scenario map, and we will encircle the two polish armies near Kutno by taking everything including Lodz. By then the 4th army will have reached the northern bank of the Bzura.

So this map is also intersting for all the Polish players here. This was the first major counterattack that really threatened an entire German army.
It is also probably the most decisive battle of the entire Polish campaign, since the outcome of this battle pretty much decided the war between Poland and German.

General location:

Lodz - Location.jpg (224.76 KiB) Viewed 6536 times

Peace impressions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 042%29.png

[KeldorKatarn]

Piatek

This is the real Polish counterattack that ended in the encirclement after the German's pulled in the 4th Panzerarmy to support their own counterattack.
The Polish actually achieved some very significant advances here, throwing the Germans back about 20km and causing a delay of the advance towards Warsaw of several days, allowing the city to fortify. Only some troops escaped the encirclement though, through the Kampinoska forest towards Modlin and Warsaw..

The cities' placement is a bit off here. Especially the northern cities seem way off, but the river itself seems to be somewhat ok, even though it is hard to find that out due to the city placement relative to it. I tried with google and bing maps with different scewing and scaling of the map, but I couldn't get anywhere near placing all cities near their locations on the scenario map.

Piatek-Google.jpg (179.43 KiB) Viewed 6335 times

Piatek-Bing.jpg (187.09 KiB) Viewed 6335 times

All in all however the battle is represented accurately, especially the different phases of the Polish attack. if the German player doesn't react quickly enough, he'll end up being thrown back just like the real German army was in exactly the same places.

And just like in the real battle, air superiority is the key to winning this one in the end. As for the name of the scenario, Piatek, that citiy was acutally taken by the Polish, but ultimately taken back by the Germans. If you want to play this historically, then let the Polish cross the river, then try to push them back over it again...

Another interesting detail from Wikipedia:

"[Piatek] is claimed to lie at the "geometrical centre" of Poland, although it is not the true geographical centre – it is the centre determined as the intersection of the great circle diagonals of a rectangle formed by lines of latitude and longitude passing through the four extreme points of Poland."

Piatek - Location.jpg (219.61 KiB) Viewed 6335 times

Peace impressions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Bzura2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Bzura.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... zura01.jpg

[KeldorKatarn]

Kampinoska Forest

This scenario seems to be nearly 100% accurate in its city placement and also the rivers are fine.
The biggest issue here is actually the scenario name. At least the game tries to save a game as "Kampinsoka Forest". The correct name is Kampinos Forest (Polish: Puszcza Kampinoska)
so the o and s are switched here. That seems to be the only issue though.

Kampinoska Forest.jpg (116.02 KiB) Viewed 6334 times

Kampinoska Forest - Rivers.jpg (155.47 KiB) Viewed 6334 times

This scenario represents the aftermath of the Battle of the Bzura and Polish forces escaping from the pocket through the Kampinos Forest towards Modling and Warsaw, with German forces in pursuit.

Kampinoska Forest - Location.jpg (208.22 KiB) Viewed 6334 times

Peace Impressions:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _rower.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... pril_1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _bagna.jpg

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Modlin

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Warsaw

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Spoils of War

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Oslo

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Lillehammer

[KeldorKatarn]

Reserved - Narvik

[Kerensky]

If and when we go back and and revisit the DLC campaigns for improvements and updates, this sort of feedback could be useful. So by all means if anyone has feedback on any DLC, feel free to post away!

[KeldorKatarn]

Will take me a while to go through it all, since I'm still working on my tool in parallel, but I'll keep em coming If anybody else wants to add something to specific maps, I'll try to include it in the top posts so it's all in one place

[KeldorKatarn]

Sorry for neglecting the thread. I have too much fun playing
I'll try to put some more critiques up asap.

[KeldorKatarn]

Is anybody reading these btw? lol Otherwise I'll focus more on typos and obvious mistakes.

[Dragoon.]

Is anybody reading these btw? lol Otherwise I'll focus more on typos and obvious mistakes.

I just did while waiting for my goulash to finish cooking.
Well to be honest I only read about Piatek & Kampinoska Forest right now but I found it quite enjoyable. I always love to read about the historic background. Loved when the dev's added historic background info at the scenario debriefing. Anyway I'm impressed about the work you invested by adding maps and such.

[ThvN]

Hello KeldorKatarn, don't worry, people actually read your thread. And I think it is very well put together, with the map overlays and historical background. I might be able to contribute some suggestions for the early scenarios in the GC'40 campaign, and I just noticed the new 'typo-thread' in the stickies, so I probably will help out there as well.

BTW, about the first GC'39 scenario, if the devs decide to go along with your suggestion to rework/dump it: ever since I played it I thought it could be fun to have a small branch in the campaign path, because your objective for a DV is to neutralize the Polish airforce. Maybe if you fail, and only get an MV, you will face more airpower in the next scenario(s), or something similar. It simply could be a copy of the next scenario, but with a bigger Polish airforce and maybe some auxiliary units to help the player out. A bit like the mini-branches in GC West '44.

[Razz1]

Just look at the number of views.

You will see people read, but don't respond.

[borsook79]

Starting with:

Poznan

After all we are in command of German forces and they wouldn't use the polish names on their maps. heck Guderian was born in one of these cities and he wouldn't use the Polish name (Let alone the fact that some of the polish names on this particular map didn't exist before 1945)

I agree that the German names should be used. That said all the cities you mention were originally Polish i.e. in the Middle Ages, most of the German names are actually translations of the old Polish names. So yes, the names did exist before 1945