Breaking Questions

[stevoid]

Hi,

Would like to clarify how to play a couple of situations:

Situation 1:

A fragged BG fighting to its front is charged in the flank by non-skirmishers and passes the cohesion test for that charge, which of the the following is the correct sequence thereafter:

1a - it immediately drops a cohesion level and is broken.
1b - friends test for seeing them break.
1c - it makes an initial rout, splitting the angle between frontal and flank opponents,
1d - the chargers and frontal opponents make their initial pursuit moves after all the other initial routs for this phase (4th to last sentence of impact phase full turn sequence, appendix 8 ).

or

2a - it immediately drops a cohesion level and is broken.
2b - it fights the impact combat with whatever bases were contacted in the flank.
2c - after all combats and tests, friends test for seeing them break.
2d - regardless of combat outcome, it makes an initial rout at the end of the impact phase, splitting the angle between frontal and flank opponents, with the chargers and frontal opponents attempting to contact through pursuit moves.

We assumed option 1 but it was not entirely clear as the rules on page 30 for charged fragged troops talk about what to do when failing the test for being charged and not what happens if they drop a cohesion level for the flank charge, i.e. when to make initial routs, tests, and pursuits in this situation.

Situation 2:

This is simply confirming that friends test after impact/shooting/combat for seeing an otherwise unbroken friendly BG reduced to below its autobreak threshold, i.e. at the same time they would have tested if the the BG had broken through failing a cohesion test (and that the test is still done at this time even if all the bases of the BG have been destroyed)?

And, that when a superior or elite 2 base BG is reduced to one base, but is not broken through cohesion level drops, friends only test when the remaining base is actually removed the end of the JAP (needs to be added to appendix 8?)?

Cheers,

Steve

[terrys]

I had a discussion with Simon on this exact situation only this week.

Our conclusion was that:

The chargers contact the flank of the enemy as normal
The charged BG immediately becomes 'broken'
There is no combat during this impact phase - since you don't 'fight' against broken troops.
At the end of the impact phase the broken BG makes a normal variable break move away from both enemy BGs in contact, splitting the angle between them
Both it's opponents make a variable pursuit move.

A good one to add to our FAQ's

[hammy]

That's the way I have always played this.

[terrys]

That's the way I have always played this.

You obviously get charged in the flank a lot more than I do. It happened to me for the first time last week.

[hammy]

That's the way I have always played this.

You obviously get charged in the flank a lot more than I do. It happened to me for the first time last week.

I have been both the charger and chargee in this situation several times. The rules seemed to cover it fine for me hence I didn't raise it. An entry in the FAQ looks to be in order though as at least one person and one pair of rules authors needed to think about it

[madaxeman]

If there is no fighting against broken troops, what happens when a unit breaks as a result of losing an impact phase combat?

I suspect that that there is no further fighting in the melee phase, and the units involved effectively skip melee and remain in place until the end of the bound, when the rout & pursuit all take place ?

But do tests for broken friends happen immediately after impact, or at the end of the phase?

What would happen if the "winning" unit is also fighting against another, unbroken enemy unit as well - do they ignore any bases in contact with the broken unit for calculating if they had "won" or "lost" the melee phase combat ?

[hazelbark]

That's the way I have always played this.

You obviously get charged in the flank a lot more than I do. It happened to me for the first time last week.

I've thought getting someone taken in the flank is a fact of life, the trick is not to have it where it counts.

What's your secret?

Have you been living a clean life.

[madaxeman]

That's the way I have always played this.

You obviously get charged in the flank a lot more than I do. It happened to me for the first time last week.

I've thought getting someone taken in the flank is a fact of life, the trick is not to have it where it counts.

What's your secret?

Have you been living a clean life.

Clever use of the "gap" rule methinks....

[carlos]

Tim, take a look at the end of the rules - APPENDIX 8: Full TURN Sequence.

It's all spelled out there. Nothing happens in the melee phase, but if pursuers keep in contact then the routers can lose two stands in the same turn. This is because the routers move twice: once in the impact phase, and again in the joint action.

[madaxeman]

Tim, take a look at the end of the rules - APPENDIX 8: Full TURN Sequence.

It's all spelled out there. Nothing happens in the melee phase, but if pursuers keep in contact then the routers can lose two stands in the same turn. This is because the routers move twice: once in the impact phase, and again in the joint action.

Aaaah - I think I had been reading on page 56

MOVEMENT OF BROKEN TROOPS AND ROUTERS, " Each newly broken unit makes a rout ... at the end of the phase"

as meaning "makes a rout at the end of the TURN". So actually they would break immediately and rout immediately after the impact "phase" so before movement & melee ?? Maybe me being dopey, but it might be a little excusable because virtually all the rules about what routers & pursuers do are in the JAP section (except for the "its just like an evade, look back there" references).

On page 55 it does say

FIGHTING BROKEN TROOPS, "...Damage inflicted on broken troops is assessed in the JAP" - which makes it hard to do damage if they break on impact or before

[carlos]

On the other hand...

"Pursuers who remain in contact with routers at the end of an initial pursuit move inflict losses (bases are removed from the routing battle group) and may inflict commander losses, as detailed in the Joint Action Phase section."

This can happen in any phase, impact or melee, so how many stands can a routing BG lose in a single turn?

[stevoid]

I had a discussion with Simon on this exact situation only this week.

Our conclusion was that:

The chargers contact the flank of the enemy as normal
The charged BG immediately becomes 'broken'
There is no combat during this impact phase - since you don't 'fight' against broken troops.
At the end of the impact phase the broken BG makes a normal variable break move away from both enemy BGs in contact, splitting the angle between them
Both it's opponents make a variable pursuit move.

A good one to add to our FAQ's

Terry, thanks for the reply.

That seems to be an appropriate sequence for the rout/pursuit and not fighting is also consistent with broken troop rules, pretty much what we decided except that we made its rout move as per fragged breaking for failing charge test. When would you test for friends seeing the charged BG break - at the same time as if they had failed their receiving a charge test seems appropriate to me (one might argue that the clause on page 63 applies, i.e. they have failed in response to being charged but additional wording would be clearer)?

As you say, one for the FAQ if there is no opportunity to add a few words to the rules.

Any chance that you could cast your experienced eye over the second part and clarify some autobreak questions

Cheers,

Steve

[babyshark]

I had a situation come up in a game last night in whih my BG was fight enemy to its front when it was charged in the rear by a second enemy BG. Eventually this led to my BG breaking. Question: where does my BG rout? Can it rout, or is it simply destroyed?

In order to rout my BG would have to make a 90 degree turn, then flee in column in order to get out from between the two enemy BGs. In the end, we decided it was simply destroyed as unable to make a rout move. Anyone have some input for me?

Marc

[stevoid]

Hi Marc, perhaps you could start a specific thread for your question and related things to do with direction of routs etc. I'm hoping that someone from the FOG team will close off the original query

Cheers

Steve

I had a discussion with Simon on this exact situation only this week.

Our conclusion was that:

The chargers contact the flank of the enemy as normal
The charged BG immediately becomes 'broken'
There is no combat during this impact phase - since you don't 'fight' against broken troops.
At the end of the impact phase the broken BG makes a normal variable break move away from both enemy BGs in contact, splitting the angle between them
Both it's opponents make a variable pursuit move.

A good one to add to our FAQ's

Terry, thanks for the reply.

That seems to be an appropriate sequence for the rout/pursuit and not fighting is also consistent with broken troop rules, pretty much what we decided except that we made its rout move as per fragged breaking for failing charge test. When would you test for friends seeing the charged BG break - at the same time as if they had failed their receiving a charge test seems appropriate to me (one might argue that the clause on page 63 applies, i.e. they have failed in response to being charged but additional wording would be clearer)?

As you say, one for the FAQ if there is no opportunity to add a few words to the rules.

Any chance that you could cast your experienced eye over the second part and clarify some autobreak questions

Cheers,

Steve

[terrys]

I had a situation come up in a game last night in whih my BG was fight enemy to its front when it was charged in the rear by a second enemy BG. Eventually this led to my BG breaking. Question: where does my BG rout? Can it rout, or is it simply destroyed?

This is covered by the rule on route moves:
'If its path is obstructed by unbroken enemy that cannot be bypassed, the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase.'
Therefore, since it can't avoid enemy, the broken BG stays where it is until the end of the phase - at which point it is removed.

I've thought getting someone taken in the flank is a fact of life, the trick is not to have it where it counts.

What's your secret?

Have you been living a clean life.

I think you misunderstand me - or I worded it badly - I meant that I'd never had Fragged troops hit in the flank while in contact to their front. I've had lots of Bgs charged in the flank - including cavalry by Elephants - Ouch!

This is simply confirming that friends test after impact/shooting/combat for seeing an otherwise unbroken friendly BG reduced to below its autobreak threshold, i.e. at the same time they would have tested if the the BG had broken through failing a cohesion test (and that the test is still done at this time even if all the bases of the BG have been destroyed)?

And, that when a superior or elite 2 base BG is reduced to one base, but is not broken through cohesion level drops, friends only test when the remaining base is actually removed the end of the JAP (needs to be added to appendix 8?)?

Correct in both cases - The following rule for the single base removal is in the 'Autobreak' section - So I'm not sure that it really needs to be repeated in appendix 8 - its pretty rare, and can only happen to elites/superiors who started as a BG of 2.

'Battle groups with only one base left are also destroyed and removed from the table at the end of any joint action phase.Where a battle group has not already broken when this occurs, it will trigger a cohesion test for nearby friendly battle groups as if it had just broken.'

[babyshark]

I had a situation come up in a game last night in whih my BG was fight enemy to its front when it was charged in the rear by a second enemy BG. Eventually this led to my BG breaking. Question: where does my BG rout? Can it rout, or is it simply destroyed?

This is covered by the rule on route moves:
'If its path is obstructed by unbroken enemy that cannot be bypassed, the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase.'
Therefore, since it can't avoid enemy, the broken BG stays where it is until the end of the phase - at which point it is removed.

Thanks, Terry. That is what I thought should happen, but I was afflicted with doubt.

Marc