On board artillery

[enric]

On board artillery, like Wespe, Priest, 25pdr, Newelwerfer... are overpowered units on BA

Most of them have an instant fire capacity that could not be understood, they act as a mortar but with an infinite range (not really infinite but enough to cover near all map from the starting position).

You spot a unit, ask for on board artillery that crush the enemy inmediately, move some more, ask for more on board artillery, and so on, ALL IN THE SAME TURN.

All this units should have a one turn delay, e.i. you ask for support fire, and its fire comes at the beginning of your next tun.

For instance: a scout is waiting for the advancing enemy, then an enemy scout appears, both can see at the other, but without any option for the defending, the advancing scout calls on board artillery and crush the defending scout. I can imagine, even in modern warfare, a so immediate artillery reaction and precision fire.

What's your opinion?.

[Grimnirsson]

The game is not a simulation, but a design for effect approach, a mix of 'abstract realism' and fast fun gameplay. Since everything happens so fast and the units can move quite far on the map you wouldn't hit something if the arty would come with a turn delay. Btw real arty would shell half of the map and not land just in a few squares like in BA, so this limited radius is enough for me to accept the concept

[enric]

Btw real arty would shell half of the map and not land just in a few squares like in BA

No, no, the 9 squares (tiles) is enough for a Wespe or a 25pdr fro example.
But I was talking about the WWII where a spotter must open a radio connection to his head passing him the coordinates of the target and then he will open a new radio connection to ask for a support from the 25pdr.

[GottaLove88s]

I think Enric's point is that MP games can become predictable versus a good player with one or two Priests or Wespes... All your opponent needs to do is gradually push forwards scouts and infantry, bombarding your units that show up, and then use ground units to take your surrenders... If you don't have any artillery of your own, the only way around this is to find a way to kill/suppress the Priest/Wespe... and they can take time to find and destroy... The one-turn delay proposed sounds like partly a reality, radio effect, and partly a way to soften such "perfect assaults"...

[random27]

i agree and "old" players know the unit position at beginning of game in normal maps.

[Old_Warrior]

Good point - the SP Art should not be able to fire in the same turn that it does an indirect fire attack. One turn delay would be perfect.

Direct fire would remain "as-is" and not be changed.

[oran9eone]

Hey everyone, new to forums and new fairly new to the game (50+ games).

I have to disagree on this one with all do respect. I too hate the artillary attack but I think it is fair. My opinion is both sides have them (with the same timing) so it's fair. And even if you do spot someone or something you still have to be smart about how to use it and half of the time it's only taking 10-20 points anyway. Scouts to me would rank relatively low in my arty order because multiple units can kill them. I'd usually rather target armor instead. I play knowing that I need to be extremely careful not only with my wondering scouts but critical vehicles as well. It's kind of the same with mortars. On at least a few of the maps I play you can guess where the artillary is and either flank the arty, airstrike them or avoid them. Mortars are especially vulnerable when you can triangulate their location. It's a dang good feeling to take out arty's! Allies, especially need this "tool" because the camping Germ heavies on maps like race for the town (forgot the redux equivalent). I wish we (allies) had at least one on capture the crossing. Any germ worth their salt can kick butt on that map. JMHO..

[oran9eone]

Hey everyone, new to forums and new fairly new to the game (50+ games).

I have to disagree on this one with all do respect. I too hate the artillary attack but I think it is fair. My opinion is both sides have them (with the same timing) so it's fair. And even if you do spot someone or something you still have to be smart about how to use it and half of the time it's only taking 10-20 points anyway. Scouts to me would rank relatively low in my arty order because multiple units can kill them. I'd usually rather target armor instead. I play knowing that I need to be extremely careful not only with my wondering scouts but critical vehicles as well. It's kind of the same with mortars. On at least a few of the maps I play you can guess where the artillary is and either flank the arty, airstrike them or avoid them. Mortars are especially vulnerable when you can triangulate their location. It's a dang good feeling to take out arty's! Allies, especially need this "tool" because the camping Germ heavies on maps like race for the town (forgot the redux equivalent). I wish we (allies) had at least one on capture the crossing. Any germ worth their salt can kick butt on that map. JMHO..

[Jonesy1760]

The only effect I dont like about arty is when a mortar suppresses a closed top tank.

[oran9eone]

True. I am assuming though that the damage caused is not necessarily suppression but disabling the tank. I'm no expert but couldn't a well place mortar round disable the tracks of an already damaged tank? I typically try to target infantry with mortars anyway because there tends to be more bang for your buck. But...in a pinch...

Nice game by the way...

[gortwillsaveus]

The only effect I dont like about arty is when a mortar suppresses a closed top tank.

This discussion has come up once before.
IMHO,..I think the act of potentially lowering the morale is realistic.

I'll give you an example.
In the real world (circa WW2),...let's suppose a Sherman is romping down a road in Normandy.
The tank is hit my mortar fire,.....what happens?

Well one of a couple of things:
1- It ignores the explosion and presses forward, and potentially into a AT gun (don't see this happening).
2 - It slows and gets off the road and FAST. (so the act of disrupting its movement is in my opinion, "lowering its morale")
3 - It quickly reverses, retreats, until the contact can be identified. (same result as #2)

Look,..I know of plenty of Chess players who hate the en-passant move. Or,..they perhaps know nothing about it at all, and are surprised when the move is made on them.
I personally like the effects the Wespe, 25-lb and such have at this time.
And actually,..I've had Wespe miss the target in a whole game due to the randomness.

I say,...leave as is,..and play on.

[Jonesy1760]

I am speaking of the infantry mortars....seems "gamey" to allow a tank like a Pz 4 ,or sherman to get suppressed by what is a small anti Inf. weapon.

[MontysDouble]

I assume that the mortars being represented are the 81mm/3" type. These have a fairly substantial bursting charge, comparable to a tank HE round. In real life a salvo of these coming down would force the tank to button up (massively reducing situational awareness) and could well cause minor damage, as well as the possibility of killing/injuring crew members before they closed the hatches. Crucially, it also creates uncertainty in the crew - have they been spotted and if so what else is out there? So overall I think the effect is realistic, and works well with the gameplay.

[oran9eone]

Gort and Marty make really valid points in regards to situational awareness and weariness about moving forward after being hit with mortar fire. Slitherine has it right too because mortars usually take maybe 10 points from a tank. Several times I've had them take no points at all.

[gortwillsaveus]

Hey everyone, new to forums and new fairly new to the game (50+ games).

I wish we (allies) had at least one on capture the crossing. Any germ worth their salt can kick butt on that map. JMHO..

Wish to play as Germans in "Capture the Crossing" and see if your troops are worth their weight in salt?
I'd be happy to play as Allies.

[oran9eone]

Sure, I would be interesed in a lesson. Full disclosure, I've never played as Axis on this map but the veteran players that I have played make it extremely difficult for Allies because it is hard to flank the more powerful Axis tanks. I've won several as Allies but I think it was more because of the Axis experience level. Again, I look forward to the learning experience!

[jcb989]

I prefer the Allies on that map.

[k9mike]

Not sure if this has been brought up...But, what if the onboard Arty have a slight dispersel in the surrounding hexes. Where it would be kinda like how the mortar rounds fall sometimes.
maybe on a roll of like 1 is direct hit, 2-3 random surrounding hex hit, 4-6 random 2 hexes away hit. This would be more realistic and more beneficial also. you could have a chance of hitting a adjacent enemy unit as well. Kinda like a very small area supressing fire. It would also make you be more careful, because if you have friendly forces too close...Your likely to get friendly(danger close) Fire incidents.