deducter wrote:It's quite a shame that the stock game barely takes into account the graphics for calculating CD.
Hi deducter, I hope you don't mind my elaborate uninvited feedback, but you've touched on a fairly complicated issue which I am trying to deal with, so I am very interested. My bold statement:
A number of stock PzC icons do not accurately depict the unit(s) they are supposed to represent. So relying on the icon to modify stats might produce 'a-historcial' results, although on the other hand there is a good reason for a 'what you see is what you get' philosophy.
Explanation: This issue was pressed home to me recently by a friend of mine in (stock eqp file) multiplayer sessions, where the KV-1 has the same graphics but the various versions (with 'Westernized' designations) are not all as quite as easy to deal with. This cost him dearly on several occasions, mainly because he is a visually ('graphically') oriented person who squeezes in a few quick turns after a busy day at work, and when two identical-looking units are parked next to each other he assumes they are the same. Ouch.
Even if he looks closer and sees a 'B' or 'C" version, he does not assume any PanzerIV-breaking differences. The worst he got it was when we played Stalingrad and I 'tactically repositioned' a battered KV-1A into a city and upgraded it to a 'C' model, and he got a bit surprised by a unit which was suddenly dishing out damage at will and could only be contained by Stukas and artillery. I felt guilty about it but it also rekindled a long-slumbering OCD issue with various graphics which are identical for different units.
You may recall my suggestion about the US towed anti-tank guns, which in the stock game all use the same image for vastly different units, although more appropiate icons are available since day one. I get fooled by the stock icons to this day, thinking I'm up to 3-inch guns while actually facing 37mm. I changed this in my modded files ASAP but the last beta had me doing double-takes again frequently. BTW, I must thank you for mentioning me in your latest update, I hope I managed to streamline your decisions, but don't let my rambling posts influence your decisions too much, I am shocked to read you are now actually thinking out loud about maybe adding graphics in the future!
I hope I'm not encouraging you too much, but I have already mildly reworked some unit icons, to better represent the actual units, but it's still a work in progress.
I will try to standardize the bonus of the Schurzen based on unit graphics. The basic boost will be +2 CD instead of just +1. One exception I'm going to make is for the Panzer IIIM, which will get a Schurzen despite the lack of graphics in the stock game (this was inspired by a picture uploaded earlier by another poster). For now I'm not going to add graphics, but I may at a later date.
Ah, I guess you mean guille1434's Panzer IIIM, which is a very nicely modded icon. I you want to add graphics, I really want to help you if I can. I am a fan of stock-looking icons, and some pixel-relocation mods are easy. I'm currently trying to remodel every AAA unit to a switchable one, but there are a lot of stock icons which can be remade easily into realistic versions instead of the current ahistorical depictions (Hawker Tempest, Panther D/A/G to name a few).
However, one big issue with the Schurzen is the Panther G. The default graphics lack the Schurzen as is present in the Panther D and the Panther A. My understanding is that most Panthers were equipped with the Schurzen, the Ausf. G included.
You are correct, the decision to (re)equip virtually all tanks and Sturmgeschütze with Schürzen (skirts) was taken before the Panther entered mass-production. A lot of vehicles were retro-fitted with them, sometimes even in the field. BTW, I'm in agreement with your decision to up the CD for vehicles with Schürzen, but to dispel any myths, they were not initially designed against HEAT (hollow-charge) weapons, their primary purpose was to protect vulnerable parts against Soviet anti-tank rifles (14.5mm), but later on they discovered they were equally effective against HE and HEAT shells. This is why the last developed versions were mesh instead of solid plates.
http://stugiii.com/schurzen.html
http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/panzer-i ... urzen.html
In any event, here are the following options:
1. Simply change the graphics of the Panther G to be the same as Panther A and the Panther D.
2. Make the Panther G a model without the Shurzen, but it will be cheaper and slightly greater GD and AD. This is a good balance between gameplay and history, since now I can make the Panther G the cheapest and the most reliable model. It was a streamlined version and the most produced of the various Panther models. Furthermore, now there's potentially a reason for the player to get both the A and the G.
3. Change the Panther D to the current graphics of the Panther G. Adjust CD to match. However, given that the Ausf. D is present mostly for many Kursk scenarios with lots of open ground (even Kursk north has plenty of clear terrain), I think it would be a lot of work for a mostly cosmetic change.
I personally like 2, but only a tiny bit more than 1, mostly for gameplay reasons.
Good reasoning in any case, so pick whatever option you are most comfortable with. But to make your decision more complicated, if you want an icon combining Schürzen with a Panther G hull (with the bow-mounted MG), let me know, I can make one fairly easily. It was already on my to-do list, so I'll get around to it eventually, but I work at a glacial pace and I'm happy to provide people who have actual mods available with easy-to-make icons, instead of wasting my time on my meagre handful of scattered icons. I already made a more accurate M10 'Achilles' icon for Razz1, and a correct Panther will be equally 'difficult', so half an hour would be enough to make virtually any combination of Panther A/D/G hull with/without Schürzen. Although the Panther G hull had a very different shape of armor running just above the tracks, this would be hidden by mounted Schürzen, so only a plain Panther G hull would take substantially more time.
My personal advice, I hope I don't sound too arrogant, because I really am an arrogant bastard: This game isn't about pretty pictures, but a few tweaks won't hurt. But once you start tweaking, it's hard to stop. If you don't want to include any modded graphics, I would try to ignore the 'wrong' icons, because you'll start fixing things in your mod which were not broken in the first place, and the result will probably be never completely to your liking. And since you are very thorough and precise, you'll find something wrong with it no matter what solution you choose. And seeing all the positive feedback and endorsements for your mod would suggest to me your decisions so far have been the right ones, so don't worry
too much about it.
(Ask me if you would like to have another unit not presently included in the game, and I will do my best!)
/ I was considering turning it into a Mk. IIIN because it's an otherwise awesome tank except for low initiative, but I don't want it to end up like the Mk. II Flamm later on. I guess close terrain becomes more common, and with such high close defense it might be possible to hide him, but I think I remember reading that the Soviet high end equipment and infantry would negate this.
