GJS'44 Campaign Main Thread - Final June 16th 1944 Tournamen

[GottaLove88s]

GM is processing both sides' orders for June 7th - No further changes will be accepted...

[leci]

Here comes Leci! BBQ time!

[jcb989]

Its more American Traditional to roast you turkeys

[leci]

Good point well made as turkeys are US fare as are, indeed, beefburghers. Love the smell of roasted meat in the morning ... or is that the wrong war and era?

[GottaLove88s]

If June 6th was "Brummbar's Gambit" (ballsy airborne grab for Vimont and Villers-Bocage), June 7th looks set to become "The Longest Day" for the Brit Parachute Brigades...

5al/6 and 3/6ab are now expected to hold out against four German mixed/armoured brigades deploying into Vimont and Villers-Bocage, while 6al/6 attempts to take Caen from the weak Ost/411/716 garrison, and then, potentially, to hold the city against the reinforcing mixed armour of 125/21Pz.

Meanwhile, there is consolidation on the beaches, with 9/3 anticipating an easy "clean up" on Gold, and 69/50 and 7/3cdn combining a one-two punch to deny German utilisation of Hillman Battery... Can II/726/716 hold out in favourable territory? Can 857/346 avoid dissolution in any operational strength?

I/736/716 and II/736/716 merge together in Buron. The weaker I/736/716 is eliminated from the remainder of the campaign (with 3 deserting volksgrenadiers).

CONFIRMED BATTLES (bonuses/penalties in brackets)

Gold: 9/3 (AMR) ASD v 857/346 (P-)
Caen*: 6al/6 (AMR+) ME v Ost/411/716 (P-)
Vimont: II/22/21Pz (AP) AFD v 3/6ab (MR)
Hillman Battery: 69/50 (NMR) AFD v II/726/716 (AMRP-)
Villers-Bocage: I/22/21Pz AFD (AP) v 5al/6 (MR)

-indicates battle fought under “out of supply” morale penalty
+airlanding (vs airborne) brigade will suffer minimal scattering with most units together and some opportunity for redeployment

*In Caen, an unexpected conflict arose between rules 4.33 and 7.45... In this situation, the defender appears to be "anticipating trouble" from the air, hence the ordered relief effort, and a subsequent potential reinforcement, so it is fair to assume that 6al/6 did not catch the Caen garrison in total surprise... Consequently, an ME is justified (rule 4.33 prevails).

POTENTIAL SUBSEQUENT BATTLES (pending first results)

125/21Pz in Vimont or Caen
3/6ab (MR) in Vimont
6al/6 (AMR) in Caen
7/3cdn (N) in Hillman Battery
II/726/716 (AMRP-) in Hillman Battery
192/21Pz in Villers-Bocage
5al/6 (MR) in Villers-Bocage
8/3 in Gold

COMMANDERS ORDERS AS RECEIVED

Allies won the dice throw

A1. 9/3 Deploys Gold (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G1. Ost/411/716 Moves to Caen (relieves Ost/642/716)
A2. 6al/6 Deploys Caen (Arty, always has Medic, Rally)
G2. Ost/642/716 Moves to Carpiquet
A3. 151/50 Deploys Sword
G3. II/22/21Pz Deploys Vimont, Moves to Orne Bridge, Moves to Hill 112 (Arty)
A4. 8/3cdn Deploys Juno
G4. 125/21Pz Deploys Vimont, Moves to Tilly la Campagne, Moves to Caen (relieves Ost/411/716)
A5. 69/50 Attack/Not Move Hillman Battery (Naval Arty, Medic, Rally)
G5. Ost 411/716 Moves to Cagny
A6. 7/3cdn Moves Hillman Battery (Naval Arty)
G6. I/736/716 Moves to Buron
A7. 5al/6 Defends Villers-Bocage
G7. II/736/716 Moves to Buron (merges with I/736/716)
A8. 3/6ab Defends Vimont
G8. 857/346 Moves to Vaux sue Aure, Moves to Thaon
A9. 8/3 Moves to Juno, Moves to Courseulles
G9. I/22/21Pz Deploys Villers-Bocage, Moves Juvigny, Moves Tilly sur Seulles (Arty)
G10. 192/21Pz Deploys Villers-Bocage, Moves Cristot, Moves Carpiquet (relieves Ost/642/716)
G11. Ost/642/716 Moves to Lebisey Woods
G12. II/726/716 Defends Hillman Battery (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G13. 858/346 Defends Ouistreham (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G14. 915/352 Defends Merville/Franceville
G15. 914/352 Defends Pegasus Bridge
G16. II/744/711 Defends Bayeux

Btw if both Commanders would give me orders in this format for June 8th, it would be much appreciated!

[GottaLove88s]

Brummbar, pls update the Strat Map.

Commanders, I aim to have your Vimont and Villers-Bocage maps up later today/tonight, with the remainder available from tomorrow...

[Brummbar44]

CONFIRMED BATTLES (bonuses/penalties in brackets)

Gold: 9/3 (AMR) AFD v 857/346 (P-)
Caen*: 6al/6 (AMR+) ME v Ost/411/716 (P-)
Vimont: II/22/21Pz (AP) AFD v 3/6ab (MR)
Hillman Battery: 69/50 (NMR) AFD v II/726/716 (AMRP-)
Villers-Bocage: I/22/21Pz AFD (AP) v 5al/6 (MR)

-indicates battle fought under “out of supply” morale penalty
+airlanding (vs airborne) brigade will suffer minimal scattering with most units together and some opportunity for redeployment

*In Caen, an unexpected conflict arose between rules 4.33 and 7.45... In this situation, the defender appears to be "anticipating trouble" from the air, hence the ordered relief effort, and a subsequent potential reinforcement, so it is fair to assume that 6al/6 did not catch the Caen garrison in total surprise... Consequently, an ME is justified (rule 4.33 prevails).

COMMANDERS ORDERS AS RECEIVED

Allies won the dice throw

A1. 9/3 Deploys Gold (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G1. Ost/411/716 Moves to Caen (relieves Ost/642/716)
A2. 6al/6 Deploys Caen (Arty, always has Medic, Rally)
G2. Ost/642/716 Moves to Carpiquet

Allies Protest illegal Axis move - Ost/411/716 cannot move to Caen while there is a unit in there (rule 3.41) so in essence Ost/642/716 must first move out of Caen to Carpiquet, my airborne would then deploy then Ost/411/716 would fight an AFD v. my Airborne in Caen...the Axis are not previously under attack and therefore cannot conduct a relief move (so rule 4.33 does not apply).

Will be updating the map shortly otherwise.

[kingt]

*In Caen, an unexpected conflict arose between rules 4.33 and 7.45... In this situation, the defender appears to be "anticipating trouble" from the air, hence the ordered relief effort, and a subsequent potential reinforcement, so it is fair to assume that 6al/6 did not catch the Caen garrison in total surprise... Consequently, an ME is justified (rule 4.33 prevails).

This isn't technically a relieve movement, and maybe this should be covered in the rule book to only refer to defending BGs in a battle fought in the previous day. In this case only 857/346 could have been relieved under rule 4.33. Maybe that needs updating. Also, maybe a 4.34 rule should say that 7.45/7/46 beats 4.33/4.32.

In this case it's not exactly anticipating trouble from the air, it's just moving BGs around to have both Carpiquet and Caen covered, maybe a D-Day oversight that needs correcting. So Ost/642/716 doesn't leave because Ost/411/716 comes to the rescue, they're just redeploying to defend another area. These are regular moves and shouldn't be confused with relieve movements. Whereas in an actual relieve move, the BGs that's relieved probably needs time off and will be sent back, not into a new defensive position. When Paras drop they still should have the surprise element because they are in fact catching some Germans off guard, striking at night, and so on, even though German patrols, AAs and what have you, are obviously defending the city.

I think that rule 7.45 should prevail as, no matter how expected a Para drop is, you never know when it's coming. Not only that but we were operating by strictly following the rules. And there aren't "ifs" for Para drops, they should always get ASD. Otherwise we could have issued orders differently. Assuming that 4.33 wasn't there to begin with, we would still have had a 4.31/4.32 vs 7.45/ conflict, in which case 7.45 should still win.

4.31 A BG that moves into a sector which an enemy BG is passing through or departing will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD).
4.32 A BG that moves into a sector on the same day as an enemy BG will fight a Meeting Engagement (ME) battle.
4.33 Relief Movements. A friendly BG can relieve a defending force by moving into a defended sector and then permitting the defender to exit. For a relief to be successful, both the entry and the exit movements must be completed before an enemy attacks. If the relief is successful, subsequent attacks will take place as an Attack vs a Fortified Defence (AFD), as if the defender had already been in position. However, if an enemy attacks before the relieving force can enter, the current defender will face an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD). If an enemy attacks after the relieving force has entered but before the current defender has departed, the new defender will face a Meeting Engagement (ME).

7.45 Paradrops - When airborne commandos parachute into territory and encounter an enemy BG, they will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD) enjoying 25 units to attack 20 defenders. The GM will scatter the attacking troops around the sector, to simulate an initial lack of cohesion on landing. In GJS'44, 5al/6 and 6al/6 are considered "air landing" brigades rather than truly "airborne", and will suffer significantly less scattering because they arrive by glider.

[GottaLove88s]

Allies Protest illegal Axis move - Ost/411/716 cannot move to Caen while there is a unit in there (rule 3.41) so in essence Ost/642/716 must first move out of Caen to Carpiquet, my airborne would then deploy then Ost/411/716 would fight an AFD v. my Airborne in Caen...the Axis are not previously under attack and therefore cannot conduct a relief move (so rule 4.33 does not apply).

Am considering the rules and circumstances. Will come back to you...

[GottaLove88s]

Ok guys, Here's my decision and rationale...

1. There's nothing in 4.33 or in the sentiment of being a relief force that says that a Commander cannot relieve a garrison before it has actually come under fire. Rule 4.33 stands.
2. Relief movement is designed to permit a BG to take control of a friendly sector while another BG is in place, without ever leaving the sector empty, which would obviously be foolish. Rule 4.33 stands.
3. In this circumstance, the enemy commander could have structured his orders to take Ost/411/716 through Caen to Carpiquet, but he chose to "relieve" Caen instead. If Ost/411/716 had merely passed through, I would agree that Ost/642/716 had been surprised. Rule 4.33 stands.

re·lief1 [ri-leef] noun

1.alleviation, ease, or deliverance through the removal of pain, distress, oppression, etc.
2.a means or thing that relieves pain, distress, anxiety, etc.
3.money, food, or other help given to those in poverty or need.
4.something affording a pleasing change, as from monotony.
5.release from a post of duty, as by the arrival of a substitute or replacement.

Brummbar & KingT in particular... Quite aside from reviewing the background above, before jumping up to shout "Objection!"...

4. Have you looked at the OOB for 411/716 and 642/716. They're identical. You're not being put at any unit disadvantage here, only the difference between an ASD vs an ME... and, frankly, your opponent had to tie up 2 BGs in one sector at exactly the right point in the turn processing to achieve that (not easy to do)
5. Have you considered the implication of me agreeing with you that you're right... That would mean that 6al/6 would fight an ASD vs 642/716... and then fight an ME vs 411/716 (both BGs arriving same turn)... and potentially then fight an ME vs 125/21Pz...

But, for now, Rule 4.33 stands (and so does 10.3).

4.33 Relief Movements. A friendly BG can relieve a defending force by moving into a defended sector and then permitting the defender to exit. For a relief to be successful, both the entry and the exit movements must be completed before an enemy attacks. If the relief is successful, subsequent attacks will take place as an Attack vs a Fortified Defence (AFD), as if the defender had already been in position. However, if an enemy attacks before the relieving force can enter, the current defender will face an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD). If an enemy attacks after the relieving force has entered but before the current defender has departed, the new defender will face a Meeting Engagement (ME).

7.45 Paradrops - When airborne commandos parachute into territory and encounter an enemy BG, they will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD) enjoying 25 units to attack 20 defenders. The GM will scatter the attacking troops around the sector, to simulate an initial lack of cohesion on landing. In GJS'44, 5al/6 and 6al/6 are considered "air landing" brigades rather than truly "airborne", and will suffer significantly less scattering because they arrive by glider.

10.1 Sadly, we GMs are only human (honest Guv! ). Consequently, we reserve the right to make improvements and fixes as the GJS'44 Campaign progresses. All such changes will be documented in the Rules & Regulations.

10.2 Feedback and proposals to enhance the Campaign are welcome. They are especially welcome between turns and less so during battle phases, for example because your feedback relates to a decision to charge four Shermans at a bunker which was discovered to have an 88 in it!

10.3 GM's decisions are final.

[GottaLove88s]

Brummbar/KingT,

Because we all have lives and day jobs, I'm enthusiastic that GJS'44 does not degenerate into regular challenges of rules if they're unfavourable...

My reading is that 6al/6 should get an ME v 411/716 (as per rationale above)... However, you both strongly feel otherwise...

Consequently, if Leci agrees with you before both of you withdraw your objections, then 6al/6 will get an ASD v 642/716, followed by an ME v 411/716 (if 642/716 does not win), with any subsequent battle with 125/21Pz to be determined by the first battle in Vimont.

Leci, the ball is in your court? Allies say that 6al/6 surprised you. Do you agree?
Brummbar & KingT, Do both of you withdraw your objection?

I will confirm whoever is first to repost...

[kingt]

Ok guys, Here's my decision and rationale...

1. There's nothing in 4.33 or in the sentiment of being a relief force that says that a Commander cannot relieve a garrison before it has actually come under fire. Rule 4.33 stands.
2. Relief movement is designed to permit a BG to take control of a friendly sector while another BG is in place, without ever leaving the sector empty, which would obviously be foolish. Rule 4.33 stands.

It should, that's actually why it was created, to replicate a situation in real combat. Otherwise from now on we'll have a lot of such-fake relieve movements between BGs. Because of two, now rule 3.41 is obsolete. We'll be able to replicate a lot of relieve movements in future days to have two BGs in sectors that allow only one.

3. In this circumstance, the enemy commander could have structured his orders to take Ost/411/716 through Caen to Carpiquet, but he chose to "relieve" Caen instead. If Ost/411/716 had merely passed through, I would agree that Ost/642/716 had been surprised. Rule 4.33 stands.

Well the enemy commander choose the easier/more logical way to move those BGs, and because of that we're now into a fake 4.33 situation. If 4.33 wasn't there, there would still have been a conflict with previous rules. But 7.45 is the stronger one.

re·lief1 [ri-leef] noun

1.alleviation, ease, or deliverance through the removal of pain, distress, oppression, etc.
2.a means or thing that relieves pain, distress, anxiety, etc.
3.money, food, or other help given to those in poverty or need.
4.something affording a pleasing change, as from monotony.
5.release from a post of duty, as by the arrival of a substitute or replacement.
Brummbar & KingT in particular... Quite aside from reviewing the background above, before jumping up to shout "Objection!"...

4. Have you looked at the OOB for 411/716 and 642/716. They're identical. You're not being put at any unit disadvantage here, only the difference between an ASD vs an ME... and, frankly, your opponent had to tie up 2 BGs in one sector at exactly the right point in the turn processing to achieve that (not easy to do)

Yes, I don't think it matters how strong the BGs are. Yes we are at disadvantage, no matter how strong the defender, the fact still remains we're attacking with Paras. ASD does count especially on June 7.

5. Have you considered the implication of me agreeing with you that you're right... That would mean that 6al/6 would fight an ASD vs 642/716... and then fight an ME vs 411/716 (both BGs arriving same turn)... and potentially then fight an ME vs 125/21Pz... That, to me, sounds like a good way to significantly wound a para BG, even if you won the first two battles... If you keep arguing, I might just decide to agree with you!

This isn't a way to communicate your decisions, my way or the highway. Yes, let's fight up to three battles on Caen.

But, for now, Rule 4.33 stands (and so does 10.3).
4.33 Relief Movements. A friendly BG can relieve a defending force by moving into a defended sector and then permitting the defender to exit. For a relief to be successful, both the entry and the exit movements must be completed before an enemy attacks. If the relief is successful, subsequent attacks will take place as an Attack vs a Fortified Defence (AFD), as if the defender had already been in position. However, if an enemy attacks before the relieving force can enter, the current defender will face an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD). If an enemy attacks after the relieving force has entered but before the current defender has departed, the new defender will face a Meeting Engagement (ME).

7.45 Paradrops - When airborne commandos parachute into territory and encounter an enemy BG, they will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD) enjoying 25 units to attack 20 defenders. The GM will scatter the attacking troops around the sector, to simulate an initial lack of cohesion on landing. In GJS'44, 5al/6 and 6al/6 are considered "air landing" brigades rather than truly "airborne", and will suffer significantly less scattering because they arrive by glider.

10.1 Sadly, we GMs are only human (honest Guv! ). Consequently, we reserve the right to make improvements and fixes as the GJS'44 Campaign progresses. All such changes will be documented in the Rules & Regulations.

10.2 Feedback and proposals to enhance the Campaign are welcome. They are especially welcome between turns and less so during battle phases, for example because your feedback relates to a decision to charge four Shermans at a bunker which was discovered to have an 88 in it!

10.3 GM's decisions are final.

[GottaLove88s]

Sorry guys... Am wasting time on regs rather than maps... Will get to maps later tonight, so V & VB likely to be tomorrow...

[kingt]

CONFIRMED BATTLES (bonuses/penalties in brackets)

Gold: 9/3 (AMR) AFD v 857/346 (P-)
Caen*: 6al/6 (AMR+) ME v Ost/411/716 (P-)
Vimont: II/22/21Pz (AP) AFD v 3/6ab (MR)
Hillman Battery: 69/50 (NMR) AFD v II/726/716 (AMRP-)
Villers-Bocage: I/22/21Pz AFD (AP) v 5al/6 (MR)

-indicates battle fought under “out of supply” morale penalty
+airlanding (vs airborne) brigade will suffer minimal scattering with most units together and some opportunity for redeployment

*In Caen, an unexpected conflict arose between rules 4.33 and 7.45... In this situation, the defender appears to be "anticipating trouble" from the air, hence the ordered relief effort, and a subsequent potential reinforcement, so it is fair to assume that 6al/6 did not catch the Caen garrison in total surprise... Consequently, an ME is justified (rule 4.33 prevails).

POTENTIAL SUBSEQUENT BATTLES (pending first results)

125/21Pz in Vimont or Caen
3/6ab (MR) in Vimont
6al/6 (AMR) in Caen
7/3cdn (N) in Hillman Battery
II/726/716 (AMRP-) in Hillman Battery
192/21Pz in Villers-Bocage
5al/6 (MR) in Villers-Bocage
8/3 in Gold

COMMANDERS ORDERS AS RECEIVED

Allies won the dice throw

A1. 9/3 Deploys Gold (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G1. Ost/411/716 Moves to Caen (relieves Ost/642/716)
A2. 6al/6 Deploys Caen (Arty, always has Medic, Rally)
G2. Ost/642/716 Moves to Carpiquet
A3. 151/50 Deploys Sword
G3. II/22/21Pz Deploys Vimont, Moves to Orne Bridge, Moves to Hill 112 (Arty)
A4. 8/3cdn Deploys Juno
G4. 125/21Pz Deploys Vimont, Moves to Tilly la Campagne, Moves to Caen (relieves Ost/411/716)
A5. 69/50 Attack/Not Move Hillman Battery (Naval Arty, Medic, Rally)
G5. Ost 411/716 Moves to Cagny
A6. 7/3cdn Moves Hillman Battery (Naval Arty)
G6. I/736/716 Moves to Buron
A7. 5al/6 Defends Villers-Bocage
G7. II/736/716 Moves to Buron (merges with I/736/716)
A8. 3/6ab Defends Vimont
G8. 857/346 Moves to Vaux sue Aure, Moves to Thaon
A9. 8/3 Moves to Juno, Moves to Courseulles
G9. I/22/21Pz Deploys Villers-Bocage, Moves Juvigny, Moves Tilly sur Seulles (Arty)
G10. 192/21Pz Deploys Villers-Bocage, Moves Cristot, Moves Carpiquet (relieves Ost/642/716)
G11. Ost/642/716 Moves to Lebisey Woods
G12. II/726/716 Defends Hillman Battery (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G13. 858/346 Defends Ouistreham (Arty, Medic, Rally)
G14. 915/352 Defends Merville/Franceville
G15. 914/352 Defends Pegasus Bridge
G16. II/744/711 Defends Bayeux

Here's one more error. Because 857/346 is moving today, they will not defend Gold AFD (it doesn't really matters because they're heavily depleted) but it matters because of the following rules:

4.31 A BG that moves into a sector which an enemy BG is passing through or departing will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD).
7.43 Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD) - where an attacking BG moves into a sector that a defender is either passing through, or is attempting to depart, the attacker can select max.25 units, the defender can select max.20 units. Attacker deploys into the first 10 rows of a 40x40 map, defender deploys into back 20 rows. Attacker begins with 1 HQ flag. Defender starts with 3 rearmost flags. There is 1 neutral flag between the opposing forces (5 VP flags on the map). Defenders will be punished if they permit themselves to be surprised. )

So that means 9/3 fights ASD against 857/346 therefore having a +5 units advantage.

[leci]

I have posted two replies to this - both seem to have been 'lost' ...go figure!

I disagree. The rules are very clear. According to the Rules (4.33) the pre D1 Caen based German BG was a 'defending force' and as such can be RELIEVED of its duty. Therefore as per the Rule a friendly BG can RELIEVE ....

Leci

[kingt]

Brummbar/KingT,

Because we all have lives and day jobs, I'm enthusiastic that GJS'44 does not degenerate into regular challenges of rules if they're unfavourable...

My reading is that 6al/6 should get an ME v 411/716 (as per rationale above)... However, you both strongly feel otherwise...

Consequently, if Leci agrees with you before both of you withdraw your objections, then 6al/6 will get an ASD v 642/716, followed by an ME v 411/716 (if 642/716 does not win), with any subsequent battle with 125/21Pz to be determined by the first battle in Vimont.

Leci, the ball is in your court? Allies say that 6al/6 surprised you. Do you agree?
Brummbar & KingT, Do both of you withdraw your objection?

I will confirm whoever is first to repost...

I agree we all have lives and day jobs, but then why make the rules so complex if we're not going to stick by them? The rules, whatever they are, have a purpose in this simulation that we're playing. They replicate the errors that appear during the tactical phase of the battle, and the errors commanders make. Because the war isn't won just by the soldiers in each BG, otherwise let's just fight battle the battles.

I don't withdraw my objections because I think we already made a compromise not only by allowing 4.33 on June 7 but by also allowing the bump in morale. That way we somewhat altered the course of the war already.

We're slowly losing whatever advantage we have created for the first days of the landings because we needed to use surprise moves, according to rules. Tough days are ahead in which German armor will come in, so why not try to use surprise elements to get in favorable positions to better defend against armor.

[leci]

6/6 dropping into Caen was hardly a surprise! But such a notion is a 'red herring'. The pre D2 German BG disposition was based on 'DEFENSE', the D2 Orders are about different or supporting remits and RELIEVING D1 BGs of their DI remits and adapting Orders and remits to D2 and beyond...... I really do not understand the problem.

[GottaLove88s]

Ok guys, Here's my decision and rationale...

1. There's nothing in 4.33 or in the sentiment of being a relief force that says that a Commander cannot relieve a garrison before it has actually come under fire. Rule 4.33 stands.
2. Relief movement is designed to permit a BG to take control of a friendly sector while another BG is in place, without ever leaving the sector empty, which would obviously be foolish. Rule 4.33 stands.

It should, that's actually why it was created, to replicate a situation in real combat. Otherwise from now on we'll have a lot of such-fake relieve movements between BGs. Because of two, now rule 3.41 is obsolete. We'll be able to replicate a lot of relieve movements in future days to have two BGs in sectors that allow only one.

KingT, with respect, I wrote the rules, so I know what I intended more than you do. There should always be 2 BGs in a sector when it is relieved otherwise it would be down to pure dumb luck whether an attacker came in at the particular instant that it was empty. That was not my intention, and neither side should benefit from it.

3. In this circumstance, the enemy commander could have structured his orders to take Ost/411/716 through Caen to Carpiquet, but he chose to "relieve" Caen instead. If Ost/411/716 had merely passed through, I would agree that Ost/642/716 had been surprised. Rule 4.33 stands.

Well the enemy commander choose the easier/more logical way to move those BGs, and because of that we're now into a fake 4.33 situation. If 4.33 wasn't there, there would still have been a conflict with previous rules. But 7.45 is the stronger one.

So, in addition to knowing exactly what was in my head when I wrote the rules, you're also claiming to know exactly what the enemy commander was thinking when he wrote his orders?

re·lief1 [ri-leef] noun
release from a post of duty, as by the arrival of a substitute or replacement.

And I assume you're also going to do a trawl of multiple dictionary sites until you find one that cites that a military force can only be relieved when it is under actual attack?

5. Have you considered the implication of me agreeing with you that you're right... That would mean that 6al/6 would fight an ASD vs 642/716... and then fight an ME vs 411/716 (both BGs arriving same turn)... and potentially then fight an ME vs 125/21Pz... That, to me, sounds like a good way to significantly wound a para BG, even if you won the first two battles... If you keep arguing, I might just decide to agree with you!

This isn't a way to communicate your decisions, my way or the highway. Yes, let's fight up to three battles on Caen.

Since you're being blunt, I should respond...

Mate, your approach isn't the most persuasive, if you want somebody to agree with you... Shouting from the playground gets people's backs up... If you want to give me evidence, do... Ask any of the guys who played original GJS. I'm quite deliberately engaging in discussions with all sides/players, to a much greater degree than we did first time out, in order to achieve fun and fairness for everyone, not just the side that shouts the loudest... Sometimes I will be wrong, and I will reconsider. Sometimes you will be wrong, and you must reconsider too...

If you genuinely believe that I am acting in a way that is deliberately blind or unfair to the Allies, then I'm happy to stand down.

These exchanges aren't good for GJS'44 or BA... Let's all take 24 hours downtime to cool things... Ok?

[leci]

To challenge kingt's remarks. The Allies made a non historical move into VB and V - good stuff and yes, a surprise! The Allies using singular BGs on the beaches was a surprise but I doubt has provided Allied advantage except for attrition - an ongoing 'debate', the success of which will be demonstrated by outcomes (player abilities apart).

I am not saying that my Orders are in any way strategically of 'win' benefit, but clearly the ability to explore options (and seek compliance approval) was/is open to both sides.

[leci]

..I could have Ordered mixed Pz to MOVE to Tilly la Campagne and ATTACK Caen.... Two options. Both are within the rules.