Tanks vs Infantry balance in GC 44-45

[borsook79]

While at the beginning of the war the balance between arms looks just fine to me, at the late stages (at least in GC) it seems to be seriously off. The heaviest German and Soviet tanks are able to destroy infantry units even if they are defending in cities or forests. And destroy them in 2-3 hits. In late 1944 I found that if I want to defend my cities I need to station there Tigers II not infantry, and that seems just not right... I see no reason for the tanks power against infantry growing so much, most advances i.e. thicker armour and higher calibre guns were either defensive in nature or directed against other armoured vehicles. Are these just my impressions?

[kmod]

This was an issue, IMHO, since vanilla Panzer Corps. In the later scenarios ( Normandy, Italy or just defending Germany ) any elite infantry unit with i.e.: +2 defense, +2 iniative, and an entrenchement level of 5 within a city , was pummeled by 2 IS-2 hits. Of course there were heavy casualties on the russian side but I think the Infantry vs Tanks in closed spaces should be respected till the end of the war for the fun of the game!

PS : I really miss those flavor perks that were present in Panzer General 2 regarding this issue that not only increased stats but made a unit unique by adding some special abilites. One of them was "Street Fighter" (unit was good at close range in cities), other was "Liberator" (extra prestige points when taking a city with that unit), etc...This kind of abilites should be present somehow in future versions of PZCorps since it really helps the replay value of the game!

[borsook79]

This was an issue, IMHO, since vanilla Panzer Corps. In the later scenarios ( Normandy, Italy or just defending Germany ) any elite infantry unit with i.e.: +2 defense, +2 iniative, and an entrenchement level of 5 within a city , was pummeled by 2 IS-2 hits. Of course there were heavy casualties on the russian side but I think the Infantry vs Tanks in closed spaces should be respected till the end of the war for the fun of the game!

PS : I really miss those flavor perks that were present in Panzer General 2 regarding this issue that not only increased stats but made a unit unique by adding some special abilites. One of them was "Street Fighter" (unit was good at close range in cities), other was "Liberator" (extra prestige points when taking a city with that unit), etc...This kind of abilites should be present somehow in future versions of PZCorps since it really helps the replay value of the game!

If this is such an old issue it's a pity nothing has been done about it... it takes away a lot of the fun, making only armoured units effective in close combat...

[KeldorKatarn]

That has been an issue since Panzer General actually. Late war experienced Tigers or such had pretty much no problem clearing out a city.

[Kerensky]

While this is undeniable, we tried to combat this in the 44 and 45 campaigns (East and now West as well) with at least a few scenarios and maps designed with heavy amounts of rough and close terrain. Fighting in cities such as Warsaw, Breslau, and Berlin allows definite good use of infantry. In Berlin especially, the HW 43 infantry is extremely cost effective at plugging gaps and fighting back against heavy Soviet units. Sure the IS-2 is pretty tough, but when you consider the price tag of an IS-2 and the HW 43 infantry, it's no mystery why Infantry have a very strong place in these maps and even more so in multiplayer games.

That said, considering the name of the game is "Panzer" Corps, and the fact there are literally over 100 different tank units for all the nations, compared to the limited number of infantry types available(basic, paratrooper, HW, engineer and some nations don't even have that many to choose from) for us not to put a strong emphasis on tank and other armored forces would seem somewhat backwards.

Suffice to say, tanks are extremely well represented in Panzer Corps, but infantry still have a very important, if somewhat limited, role.

[borsook79]

I'm not saying that inf is not useful in some situations, I'm just saying a tank should not defend better in a city than an entrenched HW inf. Plus it seems that whatever solution is applied (be it lowering tanks' soft attack in general or penalty for fighting in the cities) it won't change the balance between the tanks.

As for price factor - buying a Koening tiger is in fact more cost effective than an inf unit considering that inf will die in two hits.

[deducter]

Infantry vs tanks is balanced very well in MP play. It is simple: you cannot win if you don't employ infantry in MP. Often skillful use of infantry means the difference between victory and defeat there.

As for the Grand Campaigns, the concern voiced by the OP has been known for some time. I have created a mod called "GC Unit Revisions" in the scenario design subforum that addresses the exactly concerns about infantry survivability vs heavy tanks, along with other factors like the relative lack of impact of experience on infantry and the cost-effectiveness of heavy tanks, among many other things.

[borsook79]

Infantry vs tanks is balanced very well in MP play. It is simple: you cannot win if you don't employ infantry in MP. Often skillful use of infantry means the difference between victory and defeat there.

As for the Grand Campaigns, the concern voiced by the OP has been known for some time. I have created a mod called "GC Unit Revisions" in the scenario design subforum that addresses the exactly concerns about infantry survivability vs heavy tanks, along with other factors like the relative lack of impact of experience on infantry and the cost-effectiveness of heavy tanks, among many other things.

Thanks I'll have a look at the mod, is it compatible with save games from vanilla?

And maybe let me clarify one more time - I'm not saying the balance between arms is wrong everywhere in the game, I just see a big problem in 44-45 GC.

[soldier]

And maybe let me clarify one more time - I'm not saying the balance between arms is wrong everywhere in the game, I just see a big problem in 44-45 GC.

I can see the US 43 infantry certainly having some trouble with HA of 3, half that of the regular werhmacht