Questions about Drilled/Undrilled

[MatthewB]

Not sure if this is a "rules question" or not.

But... What is the theory behind how troops are determined to be "Drilled" or "Undrilled?"

Specifically wondering about drilled troops such as Skirmishers, or MF who might not keep straight lines in rank-file formations.

I'm trying to sort out how this is determined.

Matthew Bailey

[bbotus]

I think it is pretty much subjective in most cases. There are 2 very short sections in the rules on the topic. Pages 15-16 "Training" and Page 129 "Training".

I've played some games where the lines break down and the end game has a bunch of isolated formations. I had some undrilled foot knights fighting drilled Saracen spears. They moved to my flank. I didn't have a general close by and I couldn't roll to make a difficult move. They hit my flank and eventually routed my knights. I'm thinking any unit even undrilled would turn to face the nearest enemy in a real battle. But I think this is a game mechanism that actually works pretty well. It gives variability and forces you to maneuver your army well or face the consequences.

[ravenflight]

I think it is pretty much subjective in most cases. There are 2 very short sections in the rules on the topic. Pages 15-16 "Training" and Page 129 "Training".

I've played some games where the lines break down and the end game has a bunch of isolated formations. I had some undrilled foot knights fighting drilled Saracen spears. They moved to my flank. I didn't have a general close by and I couldn't roll to make a difficult move. They hit my flank and eventually routed my knights. I'm thinking any unit even undrilled would turn to face the nearest enemy in a real battle. But I think this is a game mechanism that actually works pretty well. It gives variability and forces you to maneuver your army well or face the consequences.

I struggle with this a little bit too, but having said that I believe that there is a BIG difference between turning as a combat formation and turning in column of mob. Now, yes, you're right, your knights WOULD turn... and they DID turn. They turned when they were hit and dropped a cohesion level. I.E. in the preceding minutes they would be 'in a disorganised rabble' turn to the threat (disrupted). In the case of a Roman legionary, he would stay facing to the front because he's trained to and would never DARE to turn to the threat unless specifically ordered to. When the order is passed, he does it in an orderly fashion along with everyone else. The cohort remains the same and he is 'ordered'.

Having had a line of undrilled sit there looking stupid is frustrating though, and I've been in that exact situation with my Vikings.

[bbotus]

Now, yes, you're right, your knights WOULD turn... and they DID turn. They turned when they were hit and dropped a cohesion level. I.E. in the preceding minutes they would be 'in a disorganised rabble' turn to the threat (disrupted).

Yep, that pretty well sums it up.

Wish they were drilled and could react better.

[MatthewB]

One short question here (that didn't get addressed in the other thread on this topic - which I lost momentarily, which is why I created this one):

For MF... What kinds of differences are there between Drilled and Undrilled MF?

I know that MF are disordered in Difficult Terrain.

It seems that all Undrilled in terms of Moving less than the full movement allowance forward is more difficult than for Drilled Troops. And expanding frontage must be done while stationary, but contracting must be done while moving.

But are there any other things that affect only MF in terms of being Undrilled?

And... Why the bit about the expanding/contracting being impossible for Undrilled in certain situations?

MB

[bbotus]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Sounds like you have the differences between drilled and undrilled. However, don't make the mistake most of us have made at one time or another and confuse 'difficult' terrain with a 'difficult' move forward (ref page 41). Undrilled can wheel and/or move less than full in difficult terrain just like drilled unless they are within 6 MU of the enemy and no general is with the unit.

And... Why the bit about the expanding/contracting being impossible for Undrilled in certain situations?

Developer question. My guess is they wanted the undrilled to be less maneuverable and decided this was one of the ways to do it.

P.S. I wish this forum would stop highlighting and underlining words for ads. Very annoying.

[MatthewB]

What's this about "Difficult Terrain/Difficult Move?"

Ref. p. 41??? That doesn't look like it's a page from the eBook, as those pages are numbered by section and page within the section (or the other way around).

Such as:

13-3

Thirteenth Page - Third Section

And I can't find ANY "page 41" in the eBook in ANY section.

MB

[bbotus]

Sorry, I'm a version 1 guy with a book. Scratch my answer. I don't know anything about V2.

P.S. This is going to get more and more confusing since some people will ask V1 and some V2 questions but they don't know to spell out which version they are referring to. V1 and V2 need separate forums but that is my personal opinion.

[ShrubMiK]

I too am still a v1 guy...but this bit just seems wrong unless there are some significant changes in v2 I have not heard of:

=============================================
I know that MF are disordered in Difficult Terrain.

It seems that all Undrilled in terms of Moving less than the full movement allowance forward is more difficult than for Drilled Troops. And expanding frontage must be done while stationary, but contracting must be done while moving.

But are there any other things that affect only MF in terms of being Undrilled?
=============================================

All types of troops can be disrodered or seriously disordered in certain types of terrain, and will suffer a number of penalties including reduced move distance. MF suffer this effect less than HF, but more than LF.

But I don't see how this has anything to do with drilled/undrilled? Undrilled MF move the same in uneven, rough, or difficult terrain as drilled MF do.

Undrilled other than skirmishers / cavalry face extra restrictions on what they can do when they move compared to their drilled equivalents, i.e. some more compicated manouevres are forbidden entirely and some are allowed only if a CMT is passed.

Nothing that "only affects MF in terms of being undrilled" though - there are things that would affect undrilled MF but not LF, LH, or cavalry...but nothing which would affect undrilled MF but not undrilled HF.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are asking?

[grahambriggs]

One short question here (that didn't get addressed in the other thread on this topic - which I lost momentarily, which is why I created this one):

For MF... What kinds of differences are there between Drilled and Undrilled MF?

I know that MF are disordered in Difficult Terrain.

It seems that all Undrilled in terms of Moving less than the full movement allowance forward is more difficult than for Drilled Troops. And expanding frontage must be done while stationary, but contracting must be done while moving.

But are there any other things that affect only MF in terms of being Undrilled?

And... Why the bit about the expanding/contracting being impossible for Undrilled in certain situations?

MB

I'm also V1 only but hopefully can shed some light as I suspect the general principles havent changed that much.

First, drilled/undrilled affects three areas of the rules in the main; movement, Complex Move Test and cost of troops. Other than CMT, it doesn't affect impact, melee or shooting in that in those phases both drilled and undrilled perform in the same way.

Points cost is simple: undrilled are cheaper because they are less good.

CMT is relatively straightforward. Drilled MF need a 7 to pass, undrilled need an 8. So if the MF are shock troops they are mor likely to charge when you don't want them to. It they have a bow armed front rank they are less likely to charge if you want them to. Undrilled MF of any type are more likely to continue pusuit, looting, etc. In general, you could say that they are more likely to do what comes naturally than what you want.

Movement. This can be confusing, as there are concepts in the rules such as difficult moves and complex moves that sound similar but mean different things. The best thing to do is use the big chart in the general movement section (in V1 it's also in the summary section in the back):

It's got a left hand column identifying what move you might make and four other columns depending on what type of troops you are. Drilled MF use the 'drilled' column. Undrilled MF use the "other undrilled" column

The body of the table shows you three different results:

simple: you can do the move
complex: you need a CMT to do the move (and remember undrilled only pass on an
impossible: you can't do it

For some things, charges or advancing straight forwards your full move, for example, it doesn't make any difference whether you are drilled or undrillied.

However you'll see generally that moves requiring more than one brain cell are the drilled guys can just do but the undrilled need a CMT. For example, a move with two wheels in it. Or a 90 degree turn while stationary. Note that some moves, for example wheeling close to the enemy, the undrilled guys can do if a general is with them, but need a CMT if not: I imagine this is "follow me, the great man said".

Moves that are positively "fancy" the drilled guys need a CMT but the undrilled guys simply can't do. For example expand and move forwards.

The overall impact of this is that undrilled MF tend to like moving forward in a line and doing what comes naturally. To do anything else takes a bit of weork from the generals, helping with CMTs, wheels etc. And they still might not do it. But they do have numbers on their side. You tend to need to protect their flanks as they can't always turn or wheel to face a threat.

Drilled can also move straight forwards and do what comes naturally. However, if you do that you've wasted the points you paid for them to be drilled. Their added manouverability means less work for generals (so perhaps you need less points spent on generals) and that it's easier for them to react to the enemy.

[pyruse]

I believe that in v2 undrilled impact foot get a +POA at impact if 3 or more deep. But I've not actually seen v2 yet; waiting for the paper version.

[Robert241167]

Unfortunately that doesn't appear to have made it into the rules as I can't see it in my electronic version.

Rob

[kevinj]

I believe that in v2 undrilled impact foot get a +POA at impact if 3 or more deep. But I've not actually seen v2 yet; waiting for the paper version.

It was something that was tried but didn't make the final cut.

[MatthewB]

What a pity (about the 3+ deep). I think that would have been an excellent idea (but only because another set of rules I like uses it, and it works out well there).

And thank you, Graham. That pretty much outlined most of what I wanted to know.

MB