GJS'44 Campaign Main Thread - Final June 16th 1944 Tournamen

[kingt]

FYI, Kangaroos were a Canadian invention (Gen. Simonds) that weren't developed until August for operation Totalize...while they would've been a smashing idea for the beaches (and Caen!) they didn't exist prior. But we're happy to have them!

Have done some more reflective research, and ok, I'm persuaded... For the sake of closer to historical accuracy, I've removed 'Roos from all Allied BGs except the Canadians and some of the specials, eg. 79th Armoured and Guards Armoured... I still feel Allies should get some 'Roos but they're now happily hopping around where they belong.

Well I think we should keep them because we already started with them, so it would be strange not to have them. I'm not saying that just because I play Allies. But think of it this way, I have used 2 Roos in my first engagement. Lost one, and one survived, so on June 7 I'm left with 2 Bren and 1 Roo. But if you remove it that's 3 Brens. My guys on the beach will think they need psychiatric help, as they could have sworn they used a Kangaroo just a day ahead - well they wouldn't know what it's called, but it looked like a Priest.

[GottaLove88s]

Don't worry KingT, you've still got about 30 'Roos... they're just with the BGs they should be with now... See the OOB
Sounds like you need to see a Priest?

[kingt]

Don't worry KingT, you've still got about 30 'Roos... they're just with the BGs they should be with now... See the OOB
Sounds like you need to see a Priest?

I could have used one on an 88 the other battle day, save myself some trouble. So send me one on June 6 early morning, will you?

[GottaLove88s]

could I please get an accurate OOB in xls? Thanks in advance...

Since everyone's excel enabled, I've added the latest Order of Battle as a spreadsheet.
I will update it after all of each day's battles.

The best way to find it will be via the "Quick Jump Links" at the top of this thread -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=38844#p363505

[Brummbar44]

Don't worry KingT, you've still got about 30 'Roos... they're just with the BGs they should be with now... See the OOB
Sounds like you need to see a Priest?

I'd like to see some Priests...the 105mm kind! LOL.

Thanks for updating the OOB, am prepping the map.

[GottaLove88s]

Hehe, you're welcome B...

And for the record, absolutely no way is anyone getting Priests or Wespe... Yes, they were there, heck so were Nebelwerfe, but both sides have arty and that's enough...

Unfortunately, I've come to realise that any kind of mobile arty just kills scenarios... so we took a view to exclude them...

It's better that way... promise

PS. But if you really don't believe me, have a go at modding any of the beaches with Priests and Nebelwerfen... it just becomes "whack a mole"...

[kingt]

Hehe, you're welcome B...

And for the record, absolutely no way is anyone getting Priests or Wespe... Yes, they were there, heck so were Nebelwerfe, but both sides have arty and that's enough...

Unfortunately, I've come to realise that any kind of mobile arty just kills scenarios... so we took a view to exclude them...

It's better that way... promise

PS. But if you really don't believe me, have a go at modding any of the beaches with Priests and Nebelwerfen... it just becomes "whack a mole"...

Agree, no in-game arty other than what's in the bonuses.

[GottaLove88s]

Advanced Player Skool - Lesson 1

Gents, I was experimenting with a map which may become known to some of you in the near future... It's a cute little town called Villers-Bocage... And while I was experimenting as a German player, I caught a Brit para in a situation with its morale down to -25, but still with 3 grenades and 2 reaction shots...

What to do?

I can't bring the PzIV any closer because the para has got the grenades and the reaction turns (but I could, and did, fire from distance to knock down his morale).

So I'm going to use my neighbouring German regular infantry...
But I have two options: (i) normal attack, or (ii) assault (89% chance of success).
What's the right choice? Yes, there is only one right answer in this situation.
(GJS Old Hands will know this for sure, but what about the newbies? )

[kingt]

Well tell us more about this Para. Can it still fire at -25 morale in GJS, no matter how many shots it has?

[GottaLove88s]

Well tell us more about this Para. Can it still fire at -25 morale in GJS, no matter how many shots it has?

GJS'44 doesn't alter BA's reaction methodology...

Anything with reaction shots can still fire back... This unit card shows 2 orange bullets in its Para description so it has 3 reaction shots (the 2 bullets shown +1 automatic reaction that all units always get, even if they use up all of their shots during their own turn).

For BA's game engine the -25 morale is irrelevant... The Para will still get its 3 reaction shots... Its -25 morale only affects the "accuracy" of those shots... But at point blank range, the accuracy isn't going to be wildly off, right?

So, what's the answer? And why?

[k9mike]

can I answer??

[kingt]

Well tell us more about this Para. Can it still fire at -25 morale in GJS, no matter how many shots it has?

Anything with reaction shots can still fire back... This unit card shows 2 orange bullets in its Para description so it has 3 reaction shots (the 2 bullets shown +1 automatic reaction that all units always get, even if they use up all of their shots during their own turn).

GJS'44 doesn't alter BA's reaction methodology... For BA's game engine the -25 morale is irrelevant... The Para will still get its 3 reaction shots... Its -25 morale only affects the "accuracy" of those shots... But at point blank range, the accuracy isn't going to be wildly off, right?

So, what's the answer? And why?

Well if it was a tank, yes it would have a reaction shot no matter what morale. But I honestly don't remember a situation where suppressed infantry with morale under 0 took shots at anything passing by, and I have played a lot of MP games. I don't think it happened with my suppressed infantry either, no matter what kind it was. That's why I thought these Paras are custom for GJS, if they can still fire under 0.

Based on what I just said, I'd take the Paras with the Panzer to get the promotion, which is what I've been doing all this time, with a rate of success of 99.99%. I'll leave a 0.01 fail rate out there, as maybe my memory doesn't serve me right, but still...

I'll certainly look forward to see heavily suppressed infantry get reaction shots in.

[k9mike]

I am with kingt on this...if you were to use infantry..even just to attack to get the surrender...they would get lit up by the HMG that can see them. Hammer them with a shot from the tank...then move in and get the surrender..

[kingt]

Reaction Fire

Units that are hidden will not shoot and reveal their position unless they have a significant chance to hurt the enemy, or when they feel its time to shoot or die.
Units that are hunting are harder to detect and your men may not notice them.
Units always get a bonus shot in the opponents turn for opportunity fire. If they did not shoot in their turn they also get their base 2 shots. If they are elite they can get an additional bonus shot.
Units that are visible will fire all but their last shot at anything they detect. Their last shot will be saved for something they think they can hurt, or when they feel its time to shoot or die.
Units that are close to being suppressed will fire their last shot as there is a good chance that waiting for the enemy to shoot will mean you're suppressed and never get the chance to fire back.
The criteria for damaging the enemy reduces as they get closer. E.g. at long range you might need a 25% chance to use your last shot or fire from cover. When adjacent you always shoot, even with a 0% chance to hurt them.
Vehicles have variable detection rates. They are best in the forward 90 degrees. Weaker in the side and poor to the rear. Closed top tanks are worse and tanks without turrets even worse. Some tanks were notorious for having poor visibility and these are also heavily penalised on detection.
Retreating tanks are usually good targets to shoot at as you often get rear/side armour shots. If you missed you were just unlucky. A 35% chance to miss means you should hit 1 in 3 times. There is a ~1 in 8 chance you would shoot 5 times in a row and miss. 1 in 8 is a pretty common occurrence. There is a ~1 in 60 chance you'd shoot and miss 10 times in a row.
Generally units that are suppressed will not react to the enemy. This is not true of armour. Suppressed armour will still have a chance to react, especially to attacks, but takes large penalties to accuracy. This is to prevent you chasing a suppressed King Tiger around with a light tank!

[GottaLove88s]

Some of you were asking about aircraft... Just as a reminder, the weather means no fighter-bombers June 6th or 7th, then three clear days... New weather report coming tomorrow...

To give you some comparison of the aircraft available to Commanders, the Fw190/F2 ground attack version is certainly no Hawker Typhoon, but it has considerable impact on infantry, and half the impact of a Typhoon on armour... but Allied armour 'aint built like the German stuff...

Allies get their Typhoons more frequently... but the Fw190 is slightly nippier and may or may not be less likely to get shot down... Depends whether generals select any AA or not?

TyphoonDelay 3
TyphoonHEAttack 60
TyphoonAPAttack 120
TyphoonAAVulnerable 50
TyphoonSuppression 40

FW190Delay 4
FW190HEAttack 60
FW190APAttack 60
FW190AAVulnerable 45
FW190Suppression 40

[GottaLove88s]

Generally units that are suppressed will not react to the enemy. This is not true of armour. Suppressed armour will still have a chance to react, especially to attacks, but takes large penalties to accuracy. This is to prevent you chasing a suppressed King Tiger around with a light tank!

It's that word generally that worries me... Ok, mentally change the scenario... Make the para something that would definitely fire back in reaction regardless of suppression... Would you assault it (89% success) or attack it?

[kingt]

Generally units that are suppressed will not react to the enemy. This is not true of armour. Suppressed armour will still have a chance to react, especially to attacks, but takes large penalties to accuracy. This is to prevent you chasing a suppressed King Tiger around with a light tank!

It's that word generally that worries me... Ok, mentally change the scenario... Make the para something that would definitely fire back in reaction regardless of suppression... Would you assault it (89% success) or attack it?

Order of reaction, but of course I don't know the big picture of the battle.
1) I'd still go with the tank.
2) If 1) is not available then provided I can suppress the HMG with something else, I'd take surrender by simple fire
3) Assault is not my favorite one, no matter the success rate, but if one must assault...

[kingt]

Some of you were asking about aircraft... Just as a reminder, the weather means no fighter-bombers June 6th or 7th, then three clear days... New weather report coming tomorrow...

To give you some comparison of the aircraft available to Commanders, the Fw190/F2 ground attack version is certainly no Hawker Typhoon, but it has considerable impact on infantry, and half the impact of a Typhoon on armour... but Allied armour 'aint built like the German stuff...

Allies get their Typhoons more frequently... but the Fw190 is slightly nippier and may or may not be less likely to get shot down... Depends whether generals select any AA or not?

TyphoonDelay 3
TyphoonHEAttack 60
TyphoonAPAttack 120
TyphoonAAVulnerable 50
TyphoonSuppression 40

FW190Delay 4
FW190HEAttack 60
FW190APAttack 60
FW190AAVulnerable 45
FW190Suppression 40

I read about your problems with German AA consistently shooting down Typhoons in the previous battle. Is the situation going to be similar here?

[leci]

Cannot see the detailed picture ( how many shots does the tank have, do the bonuses apply to tank or infantry), but would (subject to bonus allocation) go for a tank shot then attack ( not assault) with the infantry - assaults are a one shot deal and if not successful can result in suppression etc re the attacker. Rather wear them down and get them next move.

But hey, what do I know?

[leci]

Actually to refine my view, suppress from the tank then depending on bonus allocation assault or attack by inf.