Losing Core Units

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How much do you mind / don't mind losing Core units?

I don't mind losing core units at all.
6
9%
I don't like losing core units at all.
37
54%
I don't mind losing core units only if it's not too often.
25
37%
 
Total votes: 68

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by deducter »

boredatwork wrote:
Fundamentally I agree with you that the reason gameplay late in 43/44/45 is trivialised is due to the snowball effect. I'm just more doubtfull the current system could be made to ***reliably*** prevent the snowball without accidently making it too hard. IMO there are simply too many variables for prestige to cope beyond a dozen or two scenarios in a campaign. IMO I'm doubtfull it will be solved short of adopting a quality based scenario core cap instead of a quantity based one.

But what I was really objecting in my previous post is the concept of tying difficulty to arbitrary linear settings. For example from your post it sounds like you would construct the difficulties something like this:

Level / +enemy str / % of player prestige / exp penalty for unit loss

Colonel / +0 / 100% / 0
General / +1 / 75% / -100
FM / +2 / 50% / -200

In otherwords for your "ideal" hard difficulty you would make the enemy tougher, while limiting expensive equipment, and adding a greater death penalty.
My ideal for higher difficulties would actually be the introduction of new gameplay rules. I don't like strict linear increases in settings. The exact rules can be up for debate. For example, something like the rarity concept for high-end equipment is a pretty good one, so the first Tiger II might cost 100% prestige, but the second 200%, and so on. Alternatively, expupgrade penalties could be introduced, or elite reinforcement costs could be higher. Or, per your proposal, on Colonel, a destroyed unit can come back in the same scenario if you spend extra prestige, but this option is no longer available at FM. These are just some ideas, not a definitive list.
Which is why IMO the better solution than a proliferation of arbitrary difficulty levels is instead make the difficulty modding the default option in the game - provide a half dozen sliders with descriptions and let the player pick and choose how to build a custom difficulty to suit them. ex: "Prestige - increasing this option will allow you to afford more high end equipment sooner making the game easier" ; "Death Penalty - changes the amount of experience a unit loses for being so damaged it is forced to withdraw from the battle" ; "Enemy unit strength - changes the base strength of enemy units and makes them more or less capable of inflicting damage on you"; etc.
I don't think difficulty modding should be the default option. You need a number of set difficulties, as long as they feel sufficiently different, for players who don't want to fiddle with six sliders before starting a game. It also makes discussion and comparison of strategies easier. (And why just Colonel -> General -> FM? You can add in 3-4 difficulties in between Colonel and FM). Someone else who is determined to play on a custom difficulty is still welcomed to do so, perhaps via an "advanced difficulty settings" option in the game. Playing the game with +5 AI strength is very different than playing it with -75% prestige, and you can't meaningfully compare the two.

But offer a first-time player this much freedom, and you may drive him off. The game should be easy to learn, and hard to master. Once you played through the game a couple times, then experimenting around with custom difficulties or custom rules makes more sense.
Kerensky
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Kerensky »

Speaking of custom difficulties, this should be much more accessible for our players now that we have the diff.pzdat file. This file can be found in the Data folder of your installation direction, and you can open and edit it with a simple word document program, such as wordpad or notepad++ or excel.
Numdydar
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Numdydar »

boredatwork wrote:
Numdydar wrote: For me this is modeling war (in a very abstract sense) so units must die regardless how important to me as a player they may be.
I disagree - if this was a tactical game then yes units should be destroyed all the time - men die, tanks are killed. But it abstractly models operational level combat. Unless it was physically surrounded, how often did Germany lose *entire* operational units during the war? The answer is almost never. There was almost always a cadre that survived around which a unit could be reformed. at a loss of experience if it absorbed green recruits - but more frequently with a sprinkling of combat experienced men and officers, at least until 1944.

Yes in war men die but this is already simulated by unit **damage** - If my Panzer Bn is attacked by battalions of French tanks having my units suffer casualties that must be replaced at a cost is realistic - completely losing my battalion including every tank, their entire crews, the complete command staff, and support elements on the otherhand is, IMO, not.
What levels are you talking about? Companies/Batallions got whiped out all the time. Regiments less so and the futher up the chain you go the point you make becomes more valid. It just all assumes what level each unit represents in the game. If they are battlions which make the most sense if the entire ToE represents a Corps (not counting support elements like air), then some should get lost, if not every scenerio, several over the course of mutiple scenerios should be the norm. The cadre you speak of would be the rest of the units you have left versus the few people left in the batallion that got destroyed. Also remember, the destruction only means that it has lost its effectiveness as a combat unit and the people left absorbed into the forces left.

At least this is how i see it. Cadres were only used for larger organizations, normally divisional. Not so much for the lower level units.
Kamerer
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Kamerer »

#3 - Don't like it, but occasionally it happens.

I think that if you find yourself losing units frequently, you may realize that you can find better tactics or a different level. It is possible to refine tactics so that you can play without losing units, and still secure consistent DV results at all levels (except manstein perhaps). In early years a green unit, particularly recon, is not unusual to loose along the way. But more experienced units and more capable artillery and aerial reconnaissance units give you the ability to move aggressively but still not run units into ambushes and precarious situations.

I've realized now that I understand the historical vs. game-modeled equipment better, and played with deducter's mods, that the basic units in PC have some ahistorical features to really aid with not losing units. In particular, the overabundance and enhanced capabilities of German SPA (and the large number of captured Su-122s in the GCE). It seems to me, by backward guessing about why this is so, that the game has already been tilted a bit to help you NOT loose units - by greatly increasing the suppressive protection your artillery gives your units when on defense during the opponents turn, and by the AI not generally massing and using his own artillery effectively (even with the 1.10 mod to that function).

One area where it could become particularly painful is in the air in the West. With the AI more able to orchestrate mass attacks in the air than on the ground, and the quality of Western pilots and aircraft, it could be a real game-changer if even one or two aircraft top-notch fighters were lost. With the smaller core, and the much, much slower rate at which aircraft become combat-effective via experience and heroes, that could get extremely problematic. Of course, it did in reality. So it will be a challenge to find a balance between accurate and "fun."
Vaughn
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Vaughn »

I chose number 3.

I don't like it much, but it happens.

I am getting concerned that I'm most of the way through DLC 42-43 West and I am still unable to develop a core. I've had so many losses that I only have 4-5 units that have 2 stars or more. That does not bode well for 44.

Edit: After a few losses using the stock core, I did a restart and imported my own core from previous DLCs. I'm doing much better this time around.
Last edited by Vaughn on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Naxor
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Naxor »

For me the RPG elements are the only reason why i like to play long single player campaigns. It's very cool to see how your favourite core units develop during the campaign and it hurts very badly when i lose one. I can accept it time to time but I usually reload the game if my favourite super unit get destroyed. I never build big reserves because i want use all my units in every scenario and gather some prestige and heroes for them. Iron man mode sounds great for those who want some different challenge but please don't change the difficulty levels.
uran21
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by uran21 »

Where is the tie between losing core units and challenge is the question here.
If losing core units is not enjoyable (looking from overall game experience point of view), actually rather frustrating for some, I wonder how much this affects on willingness to accept certain challenge. How a risk to lose a core unit motivates you to accept / don't accept challenge?
airbornemongo101
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by airbornemongo101 »

uran21 wrote:Where is the tie between losing core units and challenge is the question here.
If losing core units is not enjoyable (looking from overall game experience point of view), actually rather frustrating for some, I wonder how much this affects on willingness to accept certain challenge. How a risk to lose a core unit motivates you to accept / don't accept challenge?
I will give up a DV,and settle for a MV or even a loss,if it means putting any of my core units in a risky situation and a chance of losing them.

Using the reform units cheat allows me to take risks that I normally wouldn't. I will take more risks knowing that I will get the lost unit back (if I lose it to some stroke of bad luck),while it may be severely degraded, I will still get it back and have a chance to build it back up again.

To me ,personally, this game is not only about managing your presitge and winning,but also building up your core units w/ experience and heroes,at the same time.

Thanks to patch 1.10 (and all of the changes implmented in it,espicially the reform units ) I have found a new love of this game,thanks to the devs for making the new changes
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monkspider
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by monkspider »

I voted for "I don't mind losing core units only if it's not too often." but I would like to see reform units available as an option, rather than a "cheat code".
deducter
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by deducter »

The more I think about it the more I agree that integrating "reform units" into the game, especially for very long content like the GCs, is the solution to a lot of the problems that players are having. Right now the penalty for a unit ending at 1 str and a unit destroyed is too great. This is an arbitrary distinction and IMO not interesting in a game of this nature, not to mention very frustrating for so many players. I think massively reducing the penalty for losing a unit, but making it so that losses are to be expected for a scenario makes so much more sense.

Operationally, this would represent a formation that was rendered combat-ineffective, not like having a unit reduced to 1-2 strength in the game right now. And since this is an abstract game, steps loss doesn't necessarily represent "kills," but rather units that are injured/damaged, or units that are too exhausted from combat. For instance, in WWII, tanks were not often destroyed outright. The holder of the battlefield could often sent out repair crews after a battle and restore many of them to working order.

There are a lot of things you could do with a reform units option. You could have a "destroyed" unit not be available until the start of the next scenario. Or by spending extra prestige, you could bring the unit back during the same scenario. There could be different levels of prestige spent to bring a unit back, like normal/elite reinforcements currently. If you opt for the default option, you might lose say 40% of the experience on your unit, but if you spend more a lot more prestige, you might only lose 10% of the experience.

No longer do players have to give up after a bad break where they lose half their core. Their units would come back, in reasonable shape.

This also would also require the reduction of the power of experienced/overstrength artillery, which is IMO the single most unrealistic and overpowered unit class in the single player game. The power of defensive artillery fire in particular is way too great. Artillery should still be useful, but not the god of the battlefield. Interestingly enough, in MP maps, artillery feel properly balanced because of the high rate of losses of all units on both sides, and their suppressive powerful isn't so great when their experience/overstrength is limited.

This would also make experimentation in core composition more viable. Instead of simply getting the toughest, most powerful units all the time, medium tanks like the Panzer IV and the Bf 109 could be quite useful after 1943, since losing one of those units would not end up being so bad.

This would work great in a Soviet-based expansion. It would be absurd to achieve the 10:1 kill ratio with Soviet units, when historically the Soviets suffered immense losses in all years of the war. It makes a lot of sense to be able to fight the Germans and lose a lot of your units in every scenario, but they would come back the next one in good order.

This even has interesting implications in MP. Imagine being able to spend prestige to bring back a unit destroyed in the same scenario. You can make it so that experience gain matters, and you could potentially get some units up to 2-3 stars during a match.
monkspider
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by monkspider »

*applause*
Brilliant post Deducter! This would be a brilliant way to evolve the game and help resolve a source of unnecessary frustration.
robman
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by robman »

I also agree with Deducter's proposal, and I would like to add a "friendly amendment": the "surrender" feature should be reformed and limited so that it more accurately reflects the conditions under which a unit would completely surrender, losing all of its equipment and personnel and becoming "unreformable."

Currently, as I understand it, units "surrender" when they are forced to retreat but have no place to go. In my experience, this most often occurs when one or more of the possible surrender routes are blocked by friendly units. In the "real world," broken units in this situation would not surrender en masse, but would make a (probably disorderly) retreat back through the friendly units, becoming combat ineffective in the process. On the other hand, a formation surrounded by enemy units, with no friendly units close by, might well be totally destroyed through some combination of destruction and surrender--think Stalingrad or the Battle of the Bulge.

In a game reformed along the lines discussed above, it might make sense to make surrendered units unreformable, provided that the conditions under which surrender occurs are limited to those in which we would really expect a unit to be totally unrecoverable.
deducter
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by deducter »

Heh, the credit for this idea really should go to boredatwork. It's his idea, I just happen to agree with it.
Casaubon
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Casaubon »

new units gain XP quite fast in later scenarios, I´d like to keep things like they are
soldier
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by soldier »

This also would also require the reduction of the power of experienced/overstrength artillery, which is IMO the single most unrealistic and overpowered unit class in the single player game. The power of defensive artillery fire in particular is way too great.
100% agree. Artillery suppression is completely over the top. I wish they would either tone down suppression or increase the effects of entrenchments. Watching Nebelwerfers kill 3 or 4 dug in, experienced Guards and suppress the rest so they can be slaughtered without risk next attack drives me crazy. I had to reduce the soft attack of every artillery in my home mod.
captainjack
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by captainjack »

I don't like losing core units, but that's usually because I mostly lose them when I've stuffed up and realise I've been dumb, which makes me feel bad and means I have to try harder next time!

If unit destruction is more a case of "rendered incapable of fighting" than actually broken, killed etc, then you can reasonably choose to reallocate the remaining people and salvaged vehicles to other units in your reinforcement phase (unit broken up for ever) or decide that they are worth re-equipping and re-staffing, but at a cost of new equipment, a lot of repair and reconstruction of damaged tanks etc.

Once I have some decent heroes I try to remember to switch on "reform units", but if I forget I just have to put up with losing a good crew. I tend to think of heroes as being due to excellent teamwork eg a particularly good grasp of tactics that others struggle to master, or (for extra movement) a really good team of mechanics who get the engines running well, and a good tank crew that can spot and follow an efficient route. As the reform cost is quite high I think that this is a good way of dealing with this.

So though I don't like losing units, I accept it's a part of the learning process and a consequence of any combat game. SInce there'is an effective way of dealing with it through reform units, I say keep it as it is, but maybe, when 1.12 is issued make Reform Units a switchable option.

For info, I'm no miltary genius. I play at Colonel level and only started using weather when AK was released as I wasn't good enough to cope before then! Weather is so annoying (especially rain and mud) but adds heaps to the game, just like the possibility of losing units if you make mistakes or have to take a risk somewhere.
KeldorKatarn
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by KeldorKatarn »

I think a "destroyed" unit should be reformable. And it should be possible keep most of the experience too, if one pays enough prestige for that.

I don't know about you guys, but I nearly always restart a scenario if I lose a core unit. I hate it, not because buying a new units costs so much, but because I lost a unit that took a lot of work to create. I wouldn't mind at all if I had to spend a lot of prestige to get it back in roughly the same condition, hence losing the chance for getting another new unit to increase my core if I could keep that one unit.

The cost should really be prestige, not unit total loss. leaving the unrealistic concept of a total loss of an entire unit on operational level aside, the cost of bad play in this game is usually prestige. If you take too many damage, you spend more prestige. if you don't adance well enough and don't capture a lot of flags, you lose prestige. If you don't get a DV you most of the time lose prestige, you definately do if you lose.

The only point at which you lose something not prestige related is when a unit is destroyed. And yes that 1 strength point difference means a world to a player. 1 strength point remaining means "fuck this is gonna cost me". Unit destroyed means: "Reload"

I think a complete reformation should be possible. More costly than elite reinforcement of a 1strength unit since unit destruction means, not only devastating losses but also loss of unit cohesion and need to reordganize the entire unit. But it should be possible to compensate with prestige. Costly, but possible. Right now it isn't possible at all. The unit is gone for good, no matter what you do.

if such a reformation mechanic was in place, a player could compensate for bad play in the past or bad luck that cost him a unit by great play in the future, gaining more prestige, therefore compensating for the loss. Losing lots of core units would still make you lose since at some point you cannot compensate anymore, but it would not force a reload just because of one bad move or bad luck that turned a "1 strength" remaining into a "killed".

I mean how often have you guys played a great scenario, the enemy was already defeated, you got lazy and in the last turn you idiot let that recon unit or heavily damaged infantry stand where it shouldn't because you thought "Ah nothings gonna happen, nearly over anyway" and the those Airborne Troops stepped out of the forest, out of fog of war and ruined your entire scenario play of 2 hours...

A reformation feature, very costly but possible, would get rid of this problem. it would force the player to work hard to get the prestige for that reformation, and become better in later scenarios, and you'd still definitely feel the pain of such a stupid move, but it wouldn't force a complete reload.

Currently leaving a unit standing and it survives with 1 strengh, you feel stupid, it costs you a shitload of prestige to get it back to 10, and you might miss out on one or two unit upgrades because of this. But you don't reload. it was stupid, but it can be compensated. Losing a unit however is an entirely different matter. That's a point of no return right there. And I feel that needs to go. That was the biggest problem about Panzer General already. hurt the player if he loses a unit but don't make it impossible for him to recover from it. And no, simply buying a new unit is not recovering for most players.

Just my 2 cents.

As a game developer I'd beta test the following: after destruction one can reform a unit with normal reinforcements, that costs 10% more than restoring 10*1 strength point with normal reinforcements, making it a bit more constly than restoring a nearly destroyed unit that was still in fighting condition. Elite reinforcement cost + 25% to get it to its old level minus 25% of its experience. (The experience loss should not be too great. Especially for fighters this can mean the world and you lose fighters often to chance when playing against the western allies. Forcing a too high XP loss even though the player is willing to pay with prestige will make the feature useless).

Also the reformation should only be possible in the next scenario, making the unit a loss in the current scenario. This would make it possible to actually lose a fighter and with one less being forced into the defensive in the air, changing the entire dynamics of the battle, but still leaving it possible. Currently losing a 2 star fighter means 100% reload for most.
Beakie
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by Beakie »

Forgive me for asking a Newbie Question in this thread. But how does one go about using this Reform Units Cheat?
Is it a button in the Options Menu or what?

Thanks in advance for your help.....

Signed
Confused Newbie in a Tank
VPaulus
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by VPaulus »

Beakie wrote:Forgive me for asking a Newbie Question in this thread. But how does one go about using this Reform Units Cheat?
Is it a button in the Options Menu or what?

Thanks in advance for your help.....

Signed
Confused Newbie in a Tank
No it's not a button. It's a code you must insert, by pressing Press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+C, in the beginning of each scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=25990
robman
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Re: Losing Core Units

Post by robman »

VPaulus wrote:
Beakie wrote:Forgive me for asking a Newbie Question in this thread. But how does one go about using this Reform Units Cheat?
Is it a button in the Options Menu or what?

Thanks in advance for your help.....

Signed
Confused Newbie in a Tank
No it's not a button. It's a code you must insert, by pressing Press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+C, in the beginning of each scenario.
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=25990
With emphasis on in the beginning of each scenario. It is very easy to forget.

One additional tip: If you disband a reformable unit before clicking "+," you will get "windfall" prestige, just as if it had strength points left. If you wish to avoid this, reform the unit before disbanding it, so that you break even.
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