effect of firing or melee

[bahdahbum]

During the fire phase the active player fires his units and applies the results immediatly .

Now as former FOGAM players we were wondering : do we do all the fires and AFTER having fired your opponents test for friendly broken units or do you fire and if an ennemy unit is broken your "ennemy" immediatly test for that broken unit which means that if another units breaks during the same phase you might have to test 2 or 3 times for different units being broken or passed trough .

[hazelbark]

Don't have the rule handy but I believe the sequence is all firing. Then all tests that result from firing.

[Blathergut]

I am sure it is 'all firing' first. All dice are allocated, then rolled. Then inactive player applies results.

[BrettPT]

The wording in the rules [page 20(firing phase) , 24 (action sequence), 55 (last bullet point) and in the QRS in the book] consistantly say that resultsfrom shooting are applied "immediately".

Seems pretty clear to me that 'immediately' means, well immediately. ie now, not 'in a minute after all their firing has been completed'.

A couple of reasons why I like results being applied immediate:
1. It seems more realistic to have things happen in phases rather than all at the same time.

2. I don't remember it ever making a difference whether you apply the results immediately or at the end of all shooting. However if you had a situation when it would, then this would bring another element of player decision making into the game (the order in which your units fire).

3. You don't have to mark or remember what outcome a unit needs to make at the end of the phase.

- Note this is different to combat outcomes, which are made after all combat in the phase has been completed.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

I don't really see any material difference whether effects are applied immediately or at the end of the phase, unless you also do reaction tests immediately instead of at the end of all shooting. I don't see where this is stated as so in the rules.

So I suppose my questions then would be:

a) Does it matter whether I apply results of firing at the end of fire at each unit or at the end of the phase? Is there some actual difference of effect to these?

b) If a unit breaks because of firing, is "results applied immediately" meaning that I do all tests for seeing friends break at that moment? And I do retire moves and such at that moment or at the end of all shooting?

c) Do I do retire to 3MU and similar moves at a particular moment or after all shooting?

What we have been doing here is complete shooting, marking how many hits each unit received. Then apply Results of Firing. Then make any required moves.

[BrettPT]

a) Does it matter whether I apply results of firing at the end of fire at each unit or at the end of the phase? Is there some actual difference of effect to these?

I think it makes little practical difference when you do it, however the reactions to the active player's shooting definately needs to be applied before you shoot back - you might not be there to reply, or might reply with less dice if you have lost cohesion due to the opponent's shooting. this is a key factor in the 'stationary guy gets the advantage over the moving guy' dynamic when shooting.

b) If a unit breaks because of firing, is "results applied immediately" meaning that I do all tests for seeing friends break at that moment? And I do retire moves and such at that moment or at the end of all shooting?

"Results are applied immediately" - the 'Results of Firing' table on page 54 tells us that 'results' includes cohesion loss and retirements.
So yes, you do any retirement/break moves immediately before going on to the next shooting target.

The rules however are contradictory on when you test for seeing a friend rout or being burst through by troops retiring.
Page 24 says you that you test after your opponent's have shot, but before you shoot back (if the non-active player). It is not completely clear if you test as you go, (like with retirements) or at the end of all of your opponent's shooting. We find it easier to test as you go (saves marking units to test later). It probably makes little difference.

However, when turning to page 71 we see that you take the CTs after "all firing ... has been completed in that phase". The 'phase' is the firing phase, this rule means that no-one tests until after both sides have completed all firing. Direct contrast to page 24.

We go with page 24, as being more in sync with the other rules on when results are applied, and we ignore the page 71 reference.

c) Do I do retire to 3MU and similar moves at a particular moment or after all shooting?

See above, retire immediately.

What we have been doing here is complete shooting, marking how many hits each unit received. Then apply Results of Firing. Then make any required moves.

So long as you apply the results of active player firing before commencing non-active player firing, it probably makes little difference.

Cheers
Brett

[terrys]

To clarify:
> All firing by a single player in a occurs at the same time in the phase.
This means that all firing is done before any outcome moves are applied.

> All outcomes are applied immediately.
Is meant to ensure that all outcome moves are applied to the non-active players units BEFORE he gets chance to fire back.