Evade Distance?

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

is a BG of light foot that has evaded a charge from the left. The top three files have made their full evade move but the bottom two files have interpenetrated , a friendly BG set at right angles to the evade move. I read the rules as saying BASES that reach such a BG with their normal move are moved on through to the far side. It seems to me would end up in the position shown above and need to reform at the start of the next movement phase. I think they would reform by placing the three top files along side the two files that moved through .

Have I got this right?

Thanks

[petedalby]

I believe you have it spot on.

[bbotus]

Hmmm. Not sure that is true. Page 48 says that if the front rank of just barely touches , then the bases that 'reach' are moved all the way through. For the bases that don't reach, those bases are placed with the front base in contact with . That brings up all kinds of issues if you don't move the BG by ranks. It can lead to splitting up a rear rank even though none of the bases in the rank reached the unit to be interpenetrated. It is a lot easier and matches the rules as written better if you move the interpenetration by ranks.

We've discussed this at length before without a definitive answer.

[philqw78]

It is a lot easier and matches the rules as written better if you move the interpenetration by ranks.

Interpenetration is done by bases.

[petedalby]

Page 48 says that if the front rank

We must have different copies of the rules?

Nowhere in my set does it mention 'front rank'. Page 48 only talks about bases. Page 23 on formations permits this too.

You make a lot of good contributions to the forum but I think you are mistaken on this one.

[bbotus]

We must have different copies of the rules?

Nowhere in my set does it mention 'front rank'. Page 48 only talks about bases. Page 23 on formations permits this too.

My error. I meant to type in bases not rank on that. I'll have to do a picture (later) of results if you don't move the whole rank. Some bases move farther, some don't. Seems very strange.

[ShrubMiK]

I don't think it is *that* odd.

If we already accept that a BG can become disconnected in its ranks, is having it become disconnected by files so much different?

[bbotus]

OK, here is my problem. Blue is evading at the end of the normal evade move Blue is interpenetrating Red as in pic 1.


If we follow what everyone is saying then, in this example, only base A touches Red so it moves through. Base B then moves up to touch Red. The other blue bases don't move.


But why would B move at all if the blue bases to the right and left stay where their normal evade move ended? Wouldn't the authors just simply say that all bases not interpenetrating make their normal move and stop?


Sorry for the large images. I couldn't figure out how to make them smaller. Also, couldn't remember how to convert the images in 'MS Word' to gif or jpg files. So I had to shoot a picture.

[philqw78]

Print screen and past into paint to get jpeg.

Other than that I can't see why you have a problem

[bbotus]

Print screen and past into paint to get jpeg.

Other than that I can't see why you have a problem

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder.

Do you agree with Interpenetration 2 or 3?

[philqw78]

2, according to the rules. However, IMO, girly run away skirmishers should only go through if the whole of the base get in.

[ShrubMiK]

The way I read the rules, the left and right files of blue should also move forward until the front base in each case is touching red. Something I've missed?

[bbotus]

girly run away skirmishers should only go through if the whole of the base get in.

Girly? You'd run, too, if 5 guys with swords and spears were after you with your sling. OK, you like 2. Somehow I can't believe that is the intention of the authors. It's too convoluted especially since they tried to keep the rules as simple as possible.

left and right files of blue should also move forward until the front base in each case is touching red.

OK, INTERPENETRATION 4. So it would look like this:


But if we change the angle a little so the interpenetration at max move is INTERPENTRATION 5.


Then we move Base A through and the other bases up to contact (INTERPENETRATION 6). But what do we do with the right file bases that miss red? Do they stay at their max move as in INTERPENETRATION 5 and not move up? If so, why do all the other bases move but they don't? I'll be very happy to hear a logical explanation to this conundrum. Everything I've heard so far argues for INTERPENETRATION 3. I think we'd all be happy with that; and, Phil could catch his girly light foot. But that is not how the rules are written.

I think the rules are written to allow the skirmishers to move up, harass the enemy and then get out of the way and safely behind the heavies coming up behind them. Isn't that what we think was actually done in ancient battles?

P.S. Thanks, again, Phil for the tips on uploading diagrams.

[ShrubMiK]

I'm not sure you'll find a "logical" explanation - the problem here is that we are trying to represent a fluid formation of somewhere in the ballpark of a thousand individuals, who will (especially when under immediate threat) tend to all do their own thing, with a set of only 6 rigid bases.

In reality I would assume the formation that results would no longer be a neat rectangle, and the density of people within it would vary from part to part - i.e. more like stretching a rectangle of toffee.

Now given that we are rolling an evade move distance for the BG as a whole, we don't normally represent that low level of detail, and it gets more complicated when things get in the way of some bases than not others. Whatever results is going to be some sort of compromise.

Can you justify the 2 left-most files getting free extra move distance to avoid being caught? I think so. The assumption is that if the may it to the protecting HF, they only need to go a few yards into the formation to be protected. Moving them behind the protecting BG is merely a convenience to avoid having to lay bases on top of one another!
(And also may be worth considering here the regularly reperated detail that the troops are not assumed to be occupying the full depth of the base - that's a convenience to allow us to use figures that we can actually see!)

Can you justify the right-most file getting free extra move distance to avoid being caught? I think not. They don't have any protection, so moving them a lot further than their theoretical move doesn't seem reasonable, remembering that their mates to the left haven't really moved the distance represented by where their base is at the end of the move.

The thing I would possibly quibble about in this is that perhaps the rear bases in the files which interpenetrate should be allowed to move through as well, following the argument that the formation wasn't really anywhere near as deep as depicted on table and extending that to apply to the whole formation rather thank just the individual ranks (and that the second rank get to shoot at the range measured from the front edge of the front rank base seems to fit in with this. But of course the line needs to be drawn somewhere - what about if they were in column?

Bottom line: if you want to operate with battle troops protecting skirmishers, there's nothing to stop you, but the skirmishers can't be fannying about way off to the sides where the protection does not apply. And even if their bases are all in front of the protecting troops, make sure they are not too far in front! If you roll down and get caught unexpectedly - unlucky, but I'm sure skirmishers got it wrong in real life too on occasion.

[gozerius]

Then things get ugly when the chargers contact the rear of some bases, but not others. The BG is interpenetrating so can't reform to face the attacker. It can only turn those bases in contact, and then, maybe, feed bases into melee, one file at a time. Ugly.

[petedalby]

Nice diagrams bbotus - and yes, I believe this is exactly what the authors intended.

It represents the skirmishers being too far from their supports to be able to safely pass through immediately. Just because it doesn't look neat and tidy doesn't make it wrong. The interpenetration will be completed when the evading BG reforms. I'm still struggling to understand why you have a problem with it.

[grahambriggs]

I think this part of the rules works well, albeit the detail can be a bit odd. If the evaders are not caught, they'll reform in the movement phase. But the partial interpenetration thing punishers evaders who get too far away from the main line. If you don't want your LF to be caught whilst evading, make sure all their bases are within a 3MU evade of the supporting troops. That way they'll get away if they roll a 1 on their VMD. Or, if there's an advantage to be gained in getting them closer to the enemy, take the risk.

[bbotus]

So, are you all saying that INTERPENETRATION 6 is the correct answer to this problem? When a partial interpenetration occurs, bases in files that will eventually pass through another unit are moved up to contact that unit. Any files that will not interpenetrate only move their normal move/evade distance and stop until next turn.

I can live with that but it sure seems strange.

Personally, if files that will never interpenetrate just move their normal move distance, then I'd like to see the rules written as INTERPENETRATION 3: Any bases partially interpenetrating another BG are moved all the way to the other side. The remaining bases complete their normal move allotment and stop. Ah, but that is only wishful thinking.

[petedalby]

I still think you're trying to over analyse this.

Since none of us are authors no-one else can give you a definitive answer - and is it really that important?

In a game I would be happy to accept either 2 or 3 - which was the whole point of the original post.

[grahambriggs]

So, are you all saying that INTERPENETRATION 6 is the correct answer to this problem? When a partial interpenetration occurs, bases in files that will eventually pass through another unit are moved up to contact that unit. Any files that will not interpenetrate only move their normal move/evade distance and stop until next turn.

Seems right to me. But the don't stop until next turn. They reform in the next manouvre phase.