Expanding close to the enemy

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:32 pm

I think I may have found a problem with the expand then move rule

In a game today one of my BG's charged a FRG enemy BG and broke it. This left my BG standing direcly alongside another enemy BG. The emeny BG could not turn immediatley because of one of my BG's facing it which then broke in turn.

This left:

Code: Select all

HHH OOO
HHH OOO

Where H is me and E is my opponent.

I turned 90 right into a single element column, he turned 90 right to face me also into a column, no problems so far.

Then my drilled troops passed a CMT and expanded and wheeled towards him to get room to shoot.

Code: Select all

HH
HH
HHOOOOOO
  oo
  oo
  oo

My troops had wheeled such that there was no room for O to expand to it's right without hitting me. He could if he passed a test wheel and expand but as the expansion has to happen first this would not be possible because of the other BG "o".

It may just be one of those things but it definitely felt wrong.

In DBM O would have expanded on the second element in the column but that can't be done in FoG.

I have a couple of photos which I will try to post tomorrow.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:51 am

Hammy,

If you were both facing each other ("I turned 90 right into a single element column, he turned 90 right to face me also into a column, no problems so far"), how then did you get to wheel within the restricted area given that you were already lined up parallel with the enemy's front (p. 36, bullet 2)?

Cheers,

Steve

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:40 am

stevoid wrote:If you were both facing each other ("I turned 90 right into a single element column, he turned 90 right to face me also into a column, no problems so far"), how then did you get to wheel within the restricted area given that you were already lined up parallel with the enemy's front (p. 36, bullet 2)?

Indeed

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:53 am

OK, good point

What if my BG turns first, then wheels to allow and expansion in my next turn (needs a CMT) then my opponent is either undrilled so can only turn or fails a CMT if he is drilled. This could still get the possition I described

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:15 am

I don't really understand what the issue is here. (Perhaps because the ASCII art is less than clear to me). However, if the enemy is shooters he can expand on the other side and wheel to line up with you and you will have the same number each shooting. If he isn't, why doesn't he just charge you?

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:54 am

hammy wrote:OK, good point

What if my BG turns first, then wheels to allow and expansion in my next turn (needs a CMT) then my opponent is either undrilled so can only turn or fails a CMT if he is drilled. This could still get the possition I described

Hi Hammy,

Assuming your expansion was not across the restricted area, e.g. you expanded towards the rear of the enemy BG, then your question, I believe, boils down to "is it fair that my drilled troops moving first get the drop on some undrilled troops moving second?" well, at the risk of appearing to cross-post: C'est la guerre

Cheers,

Steve

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:06 am

OK, let't try to post a photo.

I suspect that overall this is one area where thinking ahead does help and there is skill involved. Given that I couldn't wheel after the turn but could with a CMT when I turned it could still be a problem for the enemy BG. The issue was that I blocked expansion on the open flank and other troops blocked expansion on the other flank giving me a 4-1 shooting advantage on the BG in column

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:14 am

Before the enemy turned you would still have been wheeling across their front. However, I suppose you could claim that you were wheeling towards facing them.

However if you did so, you would no longer be a flank threat, so why would they need to turn 90 degrees into a column as they would already be facing you in a normal formation? They could simply wheel to face you more.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:15 am

Hammy,

Perhaps we're missing some detail, but after a 90 degree turn you can only do a simple advance (assuming CMT passed) and as you are within 6 MUs of enemy and sans commander, you shouldn't have been able to do a 90 degree turn combined with a short wheel anyway.

Steve

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:19 am

stevoid wrote:Hammy,

Perhaps we're missing some detail, but after a 90 degree turn you can only do a simple advance (assuming CMT passed) and as you are within 6 MUs of enemy and sans commander, you shouldn't have been able to do a 90 degree turn combined with a short wheel anyway.

Steve

My troops were drilled, that means they can turn 90 and as you point our make a simple advance which for drilled troops allows a short wheel.

The point about me wheeling after my opponent turned is a good one as at that point I am in a restriced zone and can't do it.

Overall I think that Richard is right, if you end up in a possition like my opponent it is just one of those things. The moral therefore is don't get into the mess in the first place.

Hammy

P.S. now I have sussed pictures expect some more

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:24 am

hammy wrote:The point about me wheeling after my opponent turned is a good one as at that point I am in a restriced zone and can't do it.

And if you wheel before the enemy turns, there is really no need for the enemy to turn.

Hence I think this is something of a non-issue.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:29 am

Hammy,

Great, it seems all agree that the advantageous position is quite fair.

However, moot as it may be, your comment "My troops were drilled, that means they can turn 90 and as you point our make a simple advance which for drilled troops allows a short wheel. " doesn't seem right to me (I could have this wrong) - my movement table says that a 90 degree turn can only be followed or preceded by a simple advance and what you describe falls into the difficult forward move category - which would be fine on its own but not combined with a turn.

Steve

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:37 am

stevoid wrote:Hammy,

Great, it seems all agree that the advantageous position is quite fair.

However, moot as it may be, your comment "My troops were drilled, that means they can turn 90 and as you point our make a simple advance which for drilled troops allows a short wheel. " doesn't seem right to me (I could have this wrong) - my movement table says that a 90 degree turn can only be followed or preceded by a simple advance and what you describe falls into the difficult forward move category - which would be fine on its own but not combined with a turn.

Difficult forward moves are simple if they are shown as Green on the chart, complex if shown as Blue.

Simple = Green
Complex = Blue

Being a "difficult forward move" does not change this categorisation, it just changes which line on the chart you look at.

Great, it seems all agree that the advantageous position is quite fair.

I am not sure that there is any advantageous position. See my previous 2 posts.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:49 am

Thanks for the movement clarification, I had thought that a simple advance and a difficult move were mutually exclusive but now I see the distinction. Actually clearer on the quick-ref chart than in the main rules.

Steve

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:02 am

stevoid wrote:Thanks for the movement clarification, I had thought that a simple advance and a difficult move were mutually exclusive but now I see the distinction. Actually clearer on the quick-ref chart than in the main rules.

Steve

I found that as well - after being advised by Terry that it was the case

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:14 am

nikgaukroger wrote:
stevoid wrote:Thanks for the movement clarification, I had thought that a simple advance and a difficult move were mutually exclusive but now I see the distinction. Actually clearer on the quick-ref chart than in the main rules.

Steve
I found that as well - after being advised by Terry that it was the case

The original thinking was that the chart looked a bit scary with the details of difficult forward moves in the main chart, hence they were taken out to a separate section. In retrospect that may have been a mistake. Oh well, nothing that the FAQ cannot sort out.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:28 pm

I think the question here isn't whether or not the move by the drilled crossbow is legal (which it obviously is), but what can the undrilled ones do about it.

They obviously can't expand to their right (assuming a passed CMT)

So .... They have to move the BG to their left. (forwards). They can then expand on that side (with a CMT).

The question I have to ask is:
Since the undrilled BG had to pass a CMT to turn to their left, why didn't they wheel in that direction instead. if would have secured their flank, and also have allowed the other BG of crossbows (in the picture) to shoot as well. The 90deg turn follwed by an expansion would require 2 CMT's, which is a pretty risky thing to try at the best of times.

The moral of the story is: Don't try to do complicated things with undrilled troops when close to the enemy.