Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

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deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

4kEY wrote:decucter, can you explain the situation with Strat bomber naval attack? Was carpet bombing the ocean not too effectve?

I like how the SE infantry are less expensive than core infantry, but SE tanks are the same price as their core counterparts. This seems to encourage the player to overstrength these SE infantry, as if they were supposed to.
Yes, STR was too good at destroying naval targets. An overstrength one would sink a battleship in 2 turns. That made certain scenarios like Sevastopol assault's naval component too easy. To compensate, the Ju 87 has better NA now, so it might be worth using them to bomb ships. STR is still the best choice against naval targets, but it should take a while now. And JU 87 are also a good choice, if you're willing to take some strength point losses.

SE Infantry are now really good, aren't they? The boost to both SA and HA and ammo along with the cheaper cost (especially transports) give them a truly elite status. There are lots of options with them. You can opt to just use trucks on them so they are very cheap to elite reinforce. You can opt to get them half-tracks, which are affordable, so your troops can zip around in their luxurious transports. I personally like to give them half-tracks, since it's nice to have some infantry that have good all-terrain capabilities. I don't think there's any one right answer.

SE Tanks are supposed to be 10% cheaper with 20% extra fuel/ammo. The exceptions are the Panther in 1943 (but not 1944-1945) and Tiger I/Tiger II, those are not cheaper. If the Panzer III/Panzer IV are not 10% cheaper, that's an oversight.
It is possibly a combination of the two but more likely my use of the unit has been flawed. But the problem I have had with the FW-190F is that it seems to get shot to hell too easily by Russian fighters. I will usually try to give my fighter-bombers fighter escorts still, but on the rare time that I don't, it seems like it gets immediately wrecked. I guess I am used to fighter-bombers not always needing escorts on the default campaign, but with the more potent Red Airforce they probably do.
I'm a bit busier than expected, so getting another version out was delayed. I see the problem with the Fw 190F... I may have to boost its AD to very high levels to make it more useful. I still think you should give it an escort, but ideally, what I'd like is for the unit to be capable of independent action when the Red Air Force is sufficiently weakened. The Red Air Force is quite fond of shooting through fighter cover in 1944, so the Ju 87 and the Hs 129B-2 almost certainly need at least 2 escorts to use.
4kEY
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by 4kEY »

"SE Tanks are supposed to be 10% cheaper with 20% extra fuel/ammo. The exceptions are the Panther in 1943 (but not 1944-1945) and Tiger I/Tiger II, those are not cheaper. If the Panzer III/Panzer IV are not 10% cheaper, that's an oversight."

I see. The Tiger is NOT the measure of all things.
McGuba
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by McGuba »

Hi deducter,

Have you thought about increasing the range of the Soviet 76.2mm artillery units to 3 hex? I know that currently all 75mm guns in PC have range = 2, probably for balance reason, but more probably because it was exactly like this in Panzer General.

76.2mm M1939 (USV) max range: 13,29 km
76.2mm M1942 (ZiS-3) max range: 13,29 km

As a comparison currently all of the following guns in PC have range = 3

German 10.5cm leFH18, max range: 12,32km
US 105mm M2A1 Howitzer, max range: 11,43km
French 105 mie 1913, max range: 12km

Also, the existing 76.2mm M1942 artillery and the 76.2mm M1942 AT gun are apparently the same gun so they could be made interchangable with the switch button. Hisorically, there was no such weapon as "76.2mm M1942 AT gun", there was only the 76.2mm M1942 (ZiS-3) divisional gun used as field artillery and also in AT role out of necessity, similarly to the dual role of the German 8.8cm FlaK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_divi ... 28ZiS-3%29


I am also wondering if you have any intention to create a single modified equipment.pzeqp file for use with the vanilla campaign / possible user made mods, which covers the whole duration of the war. I understand that one of the central concepts of your DLC equipment mod is the constant changes of certain stats year-by-year for each year of the DLC, but currently your mod is limited to be used with the official DLCs, if I am right. (While PC v1.05b allowed the change of stats in the equipment file during a campaign game, the latest v1.10 seems to return to the bad habit of saving the equipment file at the start of a campaign and not to accept any changes to it during the campaign thus making year-by-year changes impossible.)

As I see you have corrected many historical inaccuracies and inconsistencies of the PC e-file in your mod which is great, but it would be even better if there was a single file version which includes most of these changes and can be used for 1939-45. If you do not want to bother with this, can you advise which year would be most appropriate to be used for the whole duration of the war?
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deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

McGuba wrote:Hi deducter,

Have you thought about increasing the range of the Soviet 76.2mm artillery units to 3 hex? I know that currently all 75mm guns in PC have range = 2, probably for balance reason, but more probably because it was exactly like this in Panzer General.

76.2mm M1939 (USV) max range: 13,29 km
76.2mm M1942 (ZiS-3) max range: 13,29 km

As a comparison currently all of the following guns in PC have range = 3

German 10.5cm leFH18, max range: 12,32km
US 105mm M2A1 Howitzer, max range: 11,43km
French 105 mie 1913, max range: 12km

Also, the existing 76.2mm M1942 artillery and the 76.2mm M1942 AT gun are apparently the same gun so they could be made interchangable with the switch button. Hisorically, there was no such weapon as "76.2mm M1942 AT gun", there was only the 76.2mm M1942 (ZiS-3) divisional gun used as field artillery and also in AT role out of necessity, similarly to the dual role of the German 8.8cm FlaK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_divi ... 28ZiS-3%29
An excellent suggestion about the range on the 76 mm gun, I'll upgrade it to 3 for the Soviets. I'll also fix the SU-76M so it has consistent stats with the ZiS-3, both in AT and ART mode.

However, I don't think adding a switch mode to the ZiS-3 field gun is a good idea from a gameplay perspective. There are many maps where those guns have been placed on fortification hexes to deter attack. I've noticed that the AI is very fond of switching assault guns to artillery mode if there's another unit next to it: in other words, there'd be many maps where the AT gun emplacement might become a bit easier to breach. From what I've personally observed, the AI generally switches its assault guns in an intelligent manner, but it does a poor job with units like the 85 mm AT gun, which tends to abandon fortifications way too readily.

I am also wondering if you have any intention to create a single modified equipment.pzeqp file for use with the vanilla campaign / possible user made mods, which covers the whole duration of the war. I understand that one of the central concepts of your DLC equipment mod is the constant changes of certain stats year-by-year for each year of the DLC, but currently your mod is limited to be used with the official DLCs, if I am right. (While PC v1.05b allowed the change of stats in the equipment file during a campaign game, the latest v1.10 seems to return to the bad habit of saving the equipment file at the start of a campaign and not to accept any changes to it during the campaign thus making year-by-year changes impossible.)

As I see you have corrected many historical inaccuracies and inconsistencies of the PC e-file in your mod which is great, but it would be even better if there was a single file version which includes most of these changes and can be used for 1939-45. If you do not want to bother with this, can you advise which year would be most appropriate to be used for the whole duration of the war?
v1.10 does reload the equipment file after each scenario just like v1.05b. I'm 100% sure of this, because I've noticed this.

This mod is meant only for the DLCs. There are numerous components designed only around the DLCs: the experience penalties, the reinforcement costs, the equipment availability dates (I've moved a lot of them around to the start of specific scenarios to make things more challenging). There are also various stat upgrades year to year for the Germans.

If you want to use one year, you can try 1942. However, if you're working on a campaign and want some input on the eqp file, sent me a pm with some more information.
deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

Updated to v1.84

Changes:

1. Various late war advanced German weapons cost reduced by 10% or slightly more.
2. Deployment stage elite reinforcement cost in 1944 to 90, while 1945 remains at 100. Scenario elite reinforcement costs are double these values.
3. Soviet 76.2mm ART range 2 to 3.
4. Il-2, Il-2M3, and Il-10 AD reduced.
5. Yak-3, La-7, Yak-9U AA reduced slightly.
6. Fw 190F and Fw 190G AD increased.
7. Recon unit cost reduced by 10-20%.
8. The strategic bomber cost increase in 1943-1945 is removed.
9. SU-76M attack stats in both AT and ART mode made consistent with the 76.2mm M1942.
McGuba
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by McGuba »

3. Soviet 76.2mm ART range 2 to 3.
Excellent! I am very happy! One more step closer to historical accuracy! :)
However, I don't think adding a switch mode to the ZiS-3 field gun is a good idea from a gameplay perspective.
No problem. To be honest, I was expecting the same. :wink: Obviously there can be many of these guns pre-placed in the official DLC scenarios and making them multipurpose can drastically change the difficulty of those.
However, when talking about newly created scenarios or mods, I think it is possible to do so if the creator places them on the map bearing in mind their dual role and the AI's obsession to switch. By the way I think it is great that the AI is very "fond of" switching, after all many of us wanted this so badly before v1.1, so now we just got what we deserved. :lol:
it does a poor job with units like the 85 mm AT gun, which tends to abandon fortifications way too readily.
Again it is up to the scenario designer, if the unit AI behaviour is set to "hold position (fire)" it would only move to another hex if it is forced to retreat, and it would only fire (if its worth firing). Of course, ideally the AI should make these decisions on its own, without the "help" of the designer, but at the moment it (he? :wink: ) is still not intelligent enough. After all it (he) is still only 1-2 years old...


Thanks for your advise, I will check the '42 file. I already decided borrow some of your ideas as they really do make sense.
However, if you're working on a campaign and want some input on the eqp file, sent me a pm with some more information.
Of course, I work on a campaign :) :
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969
I can send you the latest e-file (still WIP) if you send me an e-mail adress via PM, as I cannot attach files to PMs. Or alternatively you can download the v0.1 version of the campaign from the above link, but I have added several units and changed a few stats since then. Anyway, any feedback or input is much appreciated.
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orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos »

McGuba wrote:
3. Soviet 76.2mm ART range 2 to 3.
Excellent! I am very happy! One more step closer to historical accuracy! :)
The thing I am worried about is that this range change might turn many simple cities into player's artillery killers - the Soviets will be able to easily remove overstrenght points from German towed artillery.

Right now storming the city means supressing artillery --> supressing infantry --> going into the city --> finally destroying enemy artillery. Until now, only some of the Russian cities were capable of doing big damage to my own artillery.

I wonder how it will turn out.

By the way, on my latest playthrough I am trying to learn speed, since I often tend to lack 1-2 turns to get the last objective on "blitzkrieg" maps. I invested in a Sturmpanzer early on, a unit which I have never used since my first play on vannila. It's very nice, if used mostly defensively (to avoid constant refuelling). I had great luck with infantry - got a +2 and +3 INI Gebirgsjäger and +4 INI Grenadiers (these guys do not even need artillery support!) but I still tend to be too slow. I am currently even haing troubles getting DV in Vyazma. Damn mud...

I must have lost my mojo. :?
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski
deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

I see removing overstrength points from German artillery as a good thing. Overstrength artillery is the single most cost effective use of prestige in this game, until about 1943, when infantry take over that role. I might lower the ROF of the 76.2mm ART from 11 to 10 due to the range increase though.

I recommend orlinos that you try playing the game on General or FM, and just take some losses along the way, using reform units and abundant elite reinforcements to get used to the game. Once you play around some in the late war, you'll gain a great understanding of combined arms tactic against an AI that is no longer a pushover, and you'll go back and find the scenarios from 1939-1942 to be a breeze.
orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos »

deducter wrote:I recommend orlinos that you try playing the game on General or FM, and just take some losses along the way, using reform units and abundant elite reinforcements to get used to the game. Once you play around some in the late war, you'll gain a great understanding of combined arms tactic against an AI that is no longer a pushover, and you'll go back and find the scenarios from 1939-1942 to be a breeze.
In 1941 I play using -30% prestige so I have lots of it (saving it for Stalingrad) and I am not struggling - -30% in my case means I cannot have "only best tanks" but I still have good equipment and well-experienced units.

I have to say, I am quite curious what has happened - my abilities or changes in playing style hamper me or maybe I have not adjusted to some of the recent mod changes? I used to be able to usually score a DV in Vyazma, it was tough but perfectly doable.

I watched your video again and changed strategy - I always used to approach Moscow from the south road and Vyazma from the north. I also invested all my airforce - including both strategic bombers. They seem to be more efficient in cloudy weather, since at least they do some suppresions - Stukas do need clear weather to shine.

Ok, back to the damn mud...
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4kEY
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by 4kEY »

Deducter, the naval battle at Norway was MUCH more enjoyable with the new bomber stats :D I was even able to bring all of my capital ships to bear on Narvik itself in time to support my ground forces.

The effects of overstrength and hero bonuses seem to be even greater in your mod. I have a Gebirgsjaeger and an SS infantry, both got an A+2, and even when they drop experience points they are Übermenschen. At this early stage in the war it may just be my own perception; perhaps I am grasping the subtlties of the system.

I've had difficulty keeping my head in the game lately :evil: ...better to do something else than make stupid moves without thinking them through. I like to play using my imagination to visualize a little more than the pieces the game uses to represent the units comprising axis and enemy corps.

'39 finished with just over 6000 prestige. I'm especially looking forward to invading France, as I've always had a soft spot for the '40 DLC, despite hating the vanilla and even GTPG French scenarios.
deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

4kEY wrote:Deducter, the naval battle at Norway was MUCH more enjoyable with the new bomber stats :D I was even able to bring all of my capital ships to bear on Narvik itself in time to support my ground forces.

The effects of overstrength and hero bonuses seem to be even greater in your mod. I have a Gebirgsjaeger and an SS infantry, both got an A+2, and even when they drop experience points they are Übermenschen. At this early stage in the war it may just be my own perception; perhaps I am grasping the subtlties of the system.

I've had difficulty keeping my head in the game lately :evil: ...better to do something else than make stupid moves without thinking them through. I like to play using my imagination to visualize a little more than the pieces the game uses to represent the units comprising axis and enemy corps.

'39 finished with just over 6000 prestige. I'm especially looking forward to invading France, as I've always had a soft spot for the '40 DLC, despite hating the vanilla and even GTPG French scenarios.
It's still easy to be fighting against 0 star Allies with 2-3 star overstrength German troops with heroes. As for your hero infantry, their prowess is about par for the course. This won't last forever. Part of the difficulty of the later years is the increasingly experienced/overstrength enemies, while the elite reinforcement costs for your units just keep increasing. Even your elite infantry will find the 3-star Red Guards in 1944 to be a very tough challenge.
orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos »

deducter wrote:Once you play around some in the late war, you'll gain a great understanding of combined arms tactic against an AI that is no longer a pushover, and you'll go back and find the scenarios from 1939-1942 to be a breeze.
Absolutely true. I managed to finally achieve DV in Streets of Moscow for the first time ever! Big achievement for me, I only scored loses or MV's before. After Stalingrad, it didn't seem that bad, having two SP artilleries and good infantry obviously helped. I learned to love Sturmpanzer II for its 5 ammo count, too.

I also did as you suggested with the Stukas – one of them is the latest model and fully upgraded, the other is cheap and only rarely overstrength, I throw it on the AA guns.

The change of range of Russian artillery definitely shows, I’m beginning to get afraid of it.

When do you usually get artillery models higher than 15 cm? I don’t buy the 17 cm, since I usually have a Range hero on some 10.5 cm (it’s usually the Polish captured one, I don’t know why). I’m just starting the ’42 and don’t yet feel I need the 21 cm. Although it might be useful to suppress the biggest tanks.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski
deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

orlinos wrote:
deducter wrote:Once you play around some in the late war, you'll gain a great understanding of combined arms tactic against an AI that is no longer a pushover, and you'll go back and find the scenarios from 1939-1942 to be a breeze.
Absolutely true. I managed to finally achieve DV in Streets of Moscow for the first time ever! Big achievement for me, I only scored loses or MV's before. After Stalingrad, it didn't seem that bad, having two SP artilleries and good infantry obviously helped. I learned to love Sturmpanzer II for its 5 ammo count, too.

I also did as you suggested with the Stukas – one of them is the latest model and fully upgraded, the other is cheap and only rarely overstrength, I throw it on the AA guns.

The change of range of Russian artillery definitely shows, I’m beginning to get afraid of it.

When do you usually get artillery models higher than 15 cm? I don’t buy the 17 cm, since I usually have a Range hero on some 10.5 cm (it’s usually the Polish captured one, I don’t know why). I’m just starting the ’42 and don’t yet feel I need the 21 cm. Although it might be useful to suppress the biggest tanks.
Grats on DV for Moscow. It is quite a challenging scenario, certainly the hardest one by far in 1941.

I think the new artillery changes are fine; the attack of the Russian artillery is not too noticeable against most soft targets in 1943, and 1941-1942 are not too hard anyway. And allowing the Russians to take overstrength points off the player's artillery is a good thing; overstrength artillery is too obviously efficient in terms of gameplay.

Historically the 10.5 cm and 15 cm artillery were both divisional-level artillery, and anything larger were much rarer. I usually use a mix of the 10.5 and 15 cm, throughout the entire war and don't upgrade beyond them. Against Soviet tanks, I rarely employ artillery (except the StuG IIIB and the StuG IV). There are better options: Panthers, Tigers, elite Panzer IVs, 88 gun, infantry in close terrain, TAC bombers. Artillery is reserved for soft targets generally.

Soviet tanks have a particular weakness to mass attack tactics. You'll notice that generally German units have superior INI, and if you can in some mass attack bonuses you'll be able to strike at a Soviet tank while they can barely strike back.

I think the StuG IIIB and later the StuG IV are very helpful. They are mobile artillery with high ammo, good defenses, and good firepower, useful for suppressing targets on the move.
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by 4kEY »

"I also did as you suggested with the Stukas – one of them is the latest model and fully upgraded, the other is cheap and only rarely overstrength, I throw it on the AA guns."

Fascinating. I like this idea very much, yet I am faced with a dilemma....One Stuka with an A3, the other with a D3.

Unrelated, I would like to implement direct fire mode for the StugIIIA, Sturmpanzer I, 10.5 cm arty, and flak units with the exception of the 12.8cm. I would also like to implement these here, in this mod (for my own use). I'm interested to hear opinions on how this would effect the game/ how you would keep it from effecting the balance in such a way that you'd need to modify other units to restore balance.
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos »

4kEY wrote:"I also did as you suggested with the Stukas – one of them is the latest model and fully upgraded, the other is cheap and only rarely overstrength, I throw it on the AA guns."

Fascinating. I like this idea very much, yet I am faced with a dilemma....One Stuka with an A3, the other with a D3.
In my case, My D+2 Stuka gets upgrades and overstrenght (so if I do fail to keep it out of danger, it won't get hurt much), while the A+1 one gets to do the dirty and dangerous job. But I imagine doing it the other way around...
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

With the release of the new GC, I'll start working on another version to cover the Allied units. However, I am left with a problem regarding infantry in the new GC. Basically, I can't have all 43 infantry available. Some units like the Kradschutzen are automatically upgraded via directly changing the unit stats in the equipment file, which is impossible to do since the new Western GC covers both 42 and 43. So I have 3 options:

1. Do not have automatic upgrades of certain infantry types. Realistically this applies only to the Kradschutzen, Bridge Engineers, and the AI's Bridge Engineers.
2. Upgrade all infantry to the 43 variant automatically starting in 1942. Not too realistic, but from a gameplay perspective, this is reasonable.
3. A hybrid of 1 and 2. I will perform the automatic upgrades for those units that need it at the start of the new GC, but leave the upgradeable infantry unchanged. This will result in the Kradschutzen being a bit too powerful at the start of GC42.

Other plans for the new GC:
1. Italian units are noupgrade. What you see is what you get.
2. To compensate for 1, Italian units will probably be slightly improved.
3. Expect Western Allied air superiority. In a direct engagement, I have absolutely no problem with the Allies wiping out 3 star Fw 190A from the skies. Expect to use FlaK, and lots of it.
4. Western Allies will have high quality infantry and artillery, although their tanks will be lackluster at best.
5. Various advanced German weaponry available on the Eastern Front may not be available immediately on the Western Front. Panthers, for instance, may not show up until late 1943.

Given the number of new units to research and a relatively busy schedule, it might be until next weekend that I have a completed version out. I welcome any historical commentary on the state of the American/British tanks/planes.
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider »

Those all sound like great ideas. I dread to think how deadly the Western Airforce is going to be in your new mod!
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos »

deducter wrote:Basically, I can't have all 43 infantry available. Some units like the Kradschutzen are automatically upgraded via directly changing the unit stats in the equipment file, which is impossible to do since the new Western GC covers both 42 and 43. So I have 3 options:
Probably an idiotic suggestion, but what a hell. Maybe give an optional file without automatic 43 variants (to be used at the beginning of campaign), to be replaced with the "proper one" (year 1943) during Gironde. Obviously, it demands from the player to manually replace the e-file anytime during this last scenario of '42 and to know during which scenario to do it.

The '42 file in that case might be an additional option (like the softcore rules), since those players, who do not use Kradschutzen, shouldn't be bothered with tedium of mid-campaign switching.
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider »

Could you include the '43 infantry but just have a house rule that players shouldn't upgrade to them until it is actually 1943?
deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter »

Okay, I should've clarified the statement about the 43 infantry: basically, only Kavallerie and Kradschutzen will be affected. I'm leaning towards implementing option 3, meaning that all Kavallerie and Kradschutzen are automatically upgraded to the 43 variant at the start of GC42/43. If you as the player want to fill a core up with those units for 5 scenarios, there's not too much I can do, but you'll start to run into problems at the start of the Italian scenarios. Remember, upgrading out of family will cost you experience.
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