AK - Italian Tanks. Worth Keeping?

[Nerdator]

In the first scenario the player is given 2 core Italian tanks. Is there any compelling reason to keep them and not to disband them right away to get German tanks for the prestige gained from them instead?

In my current game, I am in the Syria scenario, and I am stuck with two rather useless M15/42 which at the same time I am kind of reluctant to sell, because of their 400+ experience. Does Italian Panther (which I see in the editor) make enough an appearance in AK for keeping two M15/42s in your core? Or keeping them is a mistake I made in the very beginning?

EDIT:

For those who find themselves in the same situation as I do:

M15/42 appears in the middle of Palestine scenario (at least if you take the shortest route and DV everything: I suspect the timeline may be different otherwise). It adds a measly +2 to Hard Attack, which changes nothing.
M26/40 appears at the beginning of Persia scenario. It is quite good — while it has a little less Initiative than PzIVG (7 vs. 8 ) and Hard Attack (12 vs. 13), it is better armoured (+1 to GD and CD) and has a point in Air Attack. Overstrengthing it to 14 or 15 (if you like me have meticulously conserved the tin cans that came before it in previous scenarios) will turn it into a nasty thing. Still it's not worth the headache: they come too late in the game.
Panther D appears in On Road to India (the penultimate scenario if you DV everything) and it's nice, but as usual — too late, so don't bother with Italian tanks and sell them when you get them.

[robman]

In the first scenario the player is given 2 core Italian tanks. Is there any compelling reason to keep them and not to disband them right away to get German tanks for the prestige gained from them instead?

In my current game, I am in the Syria scenario, and I am stuck with two rather useless M15/42 which at the same time I am kind of reluctant to sell, because of their 400+ experience. Does Italian Panther (which I see in the editor) make enough an appearance in AK for keeping two M15/42s in your core?

The only compelling reason to keep them is to "feel Rommel's pain." Unless you protect them assiduously, they are unlikely to survive long enough to be upgraded to Panthers.

[Nerdator]

M14/41 is pretty good for initial scenarios when it is only slightly weaker than the best German tanks. Since it is very cheap to upgrade the Italian tanks you get originally to M14/41, it is a decent trade-off.

But by Gazala Line they turn into junk, as Pz IVG and F2 appear and the Brits start spamming tanks and planes, and M15/42 that appears much later is a slap in the face. I still use them to kill off 1-2 strength units and guard arty, but because of their low movement, they suck even at that.

[Kamerer]

The last time I played AK through, I played on Rommel and must have made some prestige mistakes early. I never had a full deployment of units. In fact, I went into the final India scenario -7 or more units at the start, but still cleared the map by the final turn. It's still pretty reasonable to get DVs even with many unfilled deployment slots. So with that in mind, unless you are starving for prestige, I'd just either a) keep them in reserve until upgraded later, or b) just deploy them as clean-up/occupation units until you can upgrade them to P26/40s or Panthers. They come late, but still will be a big boost to you when you get them with that much experience already. I wouldn't sell a unit with that much experience on it. The P26/40 is not a bad unit - it is roughly equivalent to a Pz.IV/G so you could get mileage out of that until the end.

[Nerdator]

Oh, I didn't know there was anything between M15/42 and Panther, looking forward to getting M26/40 then.

Though I know now that I will sell my Italian tanks immediately on my next go at AK campaign.

[ThvN]

The P26/40 should be available from 10.4.1943 (april 10th, 1943), it's rougly comparable to a PanzerIV, so don't expect any miracles.

[Nerdator]

Actually it's pretty disappointing that M26/40 appears right before Pz IVH, and it quickly becomes as much a second-grade tank as its predecessors.

[Casaubon]

I like to use italian equipment just for the feel of diversity and assign them secondary targets. Hunting down damaged enemy units, defending against surprise attacks etc. they are sufficiently good for that.

[Nerdator]

Well, one category of Italian units that I prefer over Germans is Strat Bombers. When it appears, P.108 is the best Strat Bomber available and even when Ju-188 comes, it's not worth changing for the Junkers plane, since both are more or less equal.

The rest (at least the stuff I have used, i.e. tanks, arty and infantry) aren't so useful for people who seek efficient play, since they're usually weaker and the advantage in price is pretty low, and there are other problems with them as well, like the lack of decent Italian SP Arty: you get stuck with 149mm, or the lack of APCs, or, going back on topic, there not being decent Italian tanks till very late in the game. If you look for flavour, diversity or roleplay — sure, they are fine.

[zappel]

I kept the italian tanks in core to upgrade them. As written above they are only useful in the first scenarios - but in the last scenarios of the campaigns they could be upgraded to Panther. Italian Panthers are more than only complement units they are really useful.

[Nerdator]

The problem with Italian Panthers is that they only appear in the last two scenarios (and much later than German Panthers), they have no cost or stats advantage (not to mention that they're Panther D, while the Germans have G by that time). It is definitely not worth it to keep Italian junk just for the Panthers.

[Casaubon]

next time I play AfKorps from scratch I will play with italian equipment ONLY (except for the SE units and german start units) and see how far I can get.

has anyone tried?

[Nerdator]

One thing that you'll have to get used to from the start is playing without SP Arty (and saving/loading for movement and range leaders ) and good fighters and fighter/bombers. But it's a good enough idea to make another go at the campaign.

[Casaubon]

I think I could get to palestine at least, even now in my first run for AfCorps in General difficulty and assaulting Basra my core is about 40% italian. The biggest problem so far was the RAF with their Spitfire IX and those vicious typhoon tac bombers.

[KeldorKatarn]

So far I use 4 italian artillery, both tanks, 3 Bersaglieri, two start bombers, one tac bomber, one fighter with an attack hero, two FlakPanzers and I might have forgotten something else.
I'm pretty happy with those italian units. The artillery and infantry are very good, the air units are great, even the fighter (although that is probably thanks to the hero unit) is one of my best ones. He wrecks the royal air force.

The tanks are a bit weak of course and one should not put them anywhere in the defensive line where there is a strong armored counter attack to be feared. But to hold the line against enemy infantry or light tanks/recons, or guard a flank, no problem.

I've just finished Basra and so far they survived. I didn't use the tanks in every scenario but that mostly because I didn't have the core slots on the map and needed other units more. Sometimes I had strat bombers on the map that I never got to use due to heavy air presence of the british, so in retrospect deploying the tanks might have been the better choice. But hey, the survived Alam Halfa fine, which was one of the harderst fights so far. After that scenario the British seem to be beaten and do not give any major resistance anymore anyway.

I think it is worth keeping them. often you have too many units to deploy all anyway, so you can just leave them at home. Exchanging them for German tanks will not increase the deployment spots, so you might have to leave even more expensive tanks home. And the are always good units to fill gaps with and guard flanks. Just make sure you don't put them anywhere where large enemy tank concentrations are and guard them with artillery and you're fine. I treat them like I treat recons or other light units and infantry in open terrain. I just put them where they can hold and not get overrun. So far they kept up in experience with my German tanks and now I upgraded them for Persia, and I think they will do well against the british, maybe even the Americans. Dunno about the Soviets, but I don't know yet what those will throw at me. Considering it's the southern border of the caucasus, mountainous terrain and the german HG Süd offensive is in full swing, I don't really expect any large Soviet armored presence on this map, but let's see what the designers surprise me with

[Nerdator]

KeldorKatarn, apart from artillery (I only had two Italian arties) and tactical bombers (because I like fighter-bombers) my Italian unit core was the same as yours when I wrote the original post, and I completed that campaign successfully.

Currently I play a German-only FM campaign (selling all core Italian units that come my way), and I am more than satisfied with the way it turns out, at least to the Gazala Line, where I am at now. It's not very expensive to make the switch (since the second scenario doesn't have any planes, so you can skimp on them and AA. Also, Italians are not much cheaper than Germans), but ultimately it's satisfying to have a core that maintains a high standard of quality and doesn't have junk. I'm especially glad that all my core is fast-moving now — the low movement rate of Italian tanks and SP arty, as well as the lack of tracked APCs, was the biggest annoyance of all.

[robman]

I kept the hero-enabled Italian SP guns that I was given early in the campaign, and at this point (Persia) they have more experience stars than any other units in my core. They are a bit slow but tough--I have never coddled them, but they are still alive. They are great for supporting infantry. My Italian tanks and planes are long gone. The only other Italian units still alive are a Bersaglieri (now upgraded to '43) and a Sahariana that I use as an infantry unit.

[Nerdator]

If you use Strat Bombers, I really suggest getting Italian ones. It's the only thing that I miss in my current German-only campaign (at Suez Canal already, and very happy). Ju 88 is junk compared to Piaggios.

As to Italian SP Arty, I've never tried to use them seriously: the low attack scores and the range of only 2 kind of puts me off them. Are higher defence stats worth it? Any 2-range arty looks like a Bomber-magnet to me, but stuff like Wurframen at least has devastating attack scores.

[robman]

[quote="Nerdator"As to Italian SP Arty, I've never tried to use them seriously: the low attack scores and the range of only 2 kind of puts me off them. Are higher defence stats worth it? Any 2-range arty looks like a Bomber-magnet to me, but stuff like Wurframen at least has devastating attack scores.[/quote]

They do not seem to be bomber magnets, I almost never have to reinforce them, and they are absurdly cheap to overstrength. They tend to surpress rather than kill, but that's their main job.

[KeldorKatarn]

I dunno, I upgraded the SP Arty to their better version in 43 and how do they do a lot of damage to infantry in cities, and they do suppression like crazy, stuff the Hummel can only dream of somehow. Might be subjective but now that one of them even has a +1 range hero... definately a keeper. And I have to say during the entire campaign they did a GREAT job at supporting my tanks. They often even survived direct tank assaults with relatively minor damage, so they performed roughly like StuGs when I needed them to plug a whole in the line. I would always get them again, they performed great. Definitely a keeper.