[GJS_BA] Invasion

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k9mike
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by k9mike »

Yes to everything you said. ;)
The Allies in this game in general are at disadvantage.... an without the proper tweaks this is not going to end well for us.
Jon, is there a way of modding the values on the 17 pdr to make it more the way it should be? If not...maybe make them all with like 150 moral so you get 3 shots an aimed shot. Atleast it would help abit. Think all BG should have arty an Typhoon bonus. Also, the other bonus' to include Resupply. Everyone knows how difficult it is playing as allies so we need the bonus' for real...besides the allies did have a lot in real life...Mortars are very effective an we need access to those as well... G obviously knows this game....If he really wanted to play a balanced campaign then there are changes that need to be done. You could play a perfect game an still get smoked the way it is set up...
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

k9mike wrote:Yes to everything you said. ;)
The Allies in this game in general are at disadvantage.... an without the proper tweaks this is not going to end well for us.
Thanks Mike, Helpful feedback. Let's put it all to Granfali and have that team "parley" :D
k9mike wrote:Jon, is there a way of modding the values on the 17 pdr to make it more the way it should be? If not...maybe make them all with like 150 moral so you get 3 shots an aimed shot. Atleast it would help abit.
Can you explain what you mean by "more the way it should be" for the 17-pdr? Everything is modifiable in squads.csv
k9mike wrote:Think all BG should have arty an Typhoon bonus. Also, the other bonus' to include Resupply.
Request for more Arty, more Typhoons noted (totally agree we need to make typhoons more useful, to get even halfway to reality). Plea for Resupply also noted (it would be impossible to fight 200 or so Waffen SS, each unit running around with 125 morale, 7 square LOS, 150 HE attack, 125 AP attack in 3 charges, plus Medic+Rally+Promote, versus much weaker/blinder/less happy/worse equipped Allied regular infantry on 100 morale, 6 square LOS, 100 HE attack, 80 AP attack, 2 charges and a bonus of nada :twisted: ).
k9mike wrote:Everyone knows how difficult it is playing as allies so we need the bonus' for real...besides the allies did have a lot in real life...Mortars are very effective an we need access to those as well... G obviously knows this game....If he really wanted to play a balanced campaign then there are changes that need to be done. You could play a perfect game an still get smoked the way it is set up...
The way I figure GJS is like this... In reality, Allies won through overwhelming airpower locking down German armour, and numerical superiority where they concentrated attacks... Germans did, mostly, have better kit, although it broke down more often, or ran out of gas and was abandoned... In GJS, airpower is more of a relatively weak random bonus, which has been neutered anyway by giving the Germans so many 88s and AAs...
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

PS. Oops, hit return too early... The overall issue we're going to hit is how to keep it fun and fair for everyone... Right now, the Allies enjoy one massive advantage, that we can reinforce each BG once... Versus that one big advantage, the Germans have advantages in (i) hundreds of invincible tanks (Brit piat won't work from 2 spaces, regular infantry only carry 2 charges that don't work either; Allies only have 30 ATGs vs about 130 ATGs for Germans), (ii) game changing Medic+Rally+Promote bonuses for about 900 units (vs about 180 Allied units with this), (iii) big ATG advantage (numerically about 130-to-30 and the 50x 88s are a one-shot tank killers, like they were in reality), (iv) stronger effect of German arty than 25-pdr (yep, seriously! ;-)), (v) About 200 Waffen SS, with incredibly strong morale/attack characteristics and 3 charges each), (vi) facing truly lousy infantry for the Allies (funnily enough, the only "advantage" Allies have is in infantry where they're massively numerically superior, about 650 Allied to 350 German, but these little guys get suppressed at the whiff of a German, and die 1-2 turns after, lol)

So, what I'd expect Granfali to say is, sure, the Germans have all of the advantages, but the Allies can reinforce once... The biggest flaw in that argument is that it sets up the whole campaign so that, strategically, the only way for the Allies to win is to gradually wear down the Germans, doesn't matter win or lose, although versus those odds lose is more likely per battle... So long as the Allies kill enough Germans while they keep losing individual battles, they'll still win the campaign eventually because they can reinforce... That's not going to be fun for either side though. Because Allies will get bored of losing impossible battles. And Germans will feel that their battle successes should be rewarded... I wonder if there's a fairer way, for everyone?
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

PPS. G, the other thing that one of the guys asked for is we'd like more control over our force selection. Meaning, if a BG pool has, for example, three mortars in it, let the player select up to three for that battle. If the player loses all of them, they're screwed, but they promise they're grown up enough to realise the consequences of craziness :mrgreen:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
Granfali
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

Hehehe, come on guys, if we convert this campaign in a sunday walk it will become boring for both sides. The best way you consider your petitions is player as german. I assure you that you won't think the same. :mrgreen:

For the moment british side have fight vs second line infantry and weak BGs. Only one 21Pz BG has something decent with plenty of PzIV (Lebisey battle), rest are a handful of stugs, marders, 251/9... no way to do anything...

Winning is not important for me, I only want to enjoy with this... If I lose (what is most probably) I will shake your hands and will tell you "congratulations".

I have lots of data to answer your petitions, but takes me a lot to write in english, so please give me some time to traduce them and expose them.

Ultimately, if you think this campaign is unbalanced (for the german side) please consider exchange the sides... you take german and british for me :mrgreen: Accept the offer??? not kidding :wink:
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

Granfali wrote:Ultimately, if you think this campaign is unbalanced (for the german side) please consider exchange the sides... you take german and british for me :mrgreen: Accept the offer??? not kidding :wink:
WE ACCEPT!! 8)

Right guys, who wants a Tiger/Waffen SS BG...?
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
random27
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by random27 »

Sorry for my allies but i think i agree with granfali , we have fought against his weakenest troops, maybe he has taken less pleasure than us (especially in the first turn when he had quite only volksgrenadier troops)
I don t play this campaign absolutly to win it , i only want to continue to take pleasure every turn, we don thave fought against great tanks but i m sure we have chances to win.
And if we lose it will be very interesting to find solutions.I ve never thought we could win very fast and maybe i ve hopped that it takes a lot of turns just to have pleasure to play :)
Maybe we ve forgotten that granfali is the one who has proposed the campaign and he has thought about a lot of things.
I think we can trust him when he says he has done that only for fun.(i don ' t know him at all in reality but i appreciate a lot what he s doing)
Let s battle against him some more turn to see if it s impossible to win ok ?
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

Granfali wrote:Hehehe, come on guys, if we convert this campaign in a sunday walk it will become boring for both sides. The best way you consider your petitions is player as german. I assure you that you won't think the same. :mrgreen:

Winning is not important for me, I only want to enjoy with this... If I lose (what is most probably) I will shake your hands and will tell you "congratulations".

I have lots of data to answer your petitions, but takes me a lot to write in english, so please give me some time to traduce them and expose them.
In seriousness, we do accept... We don't criticise you for deliberately creating something unfair because you've done such amazing work to make this campaign (which is why I was very careful to point out the good stuff first)... But there are a few things that have probably accidentally snuck in without you realising...

1. Germans have Medic+Rally+Promote for 900 units; Allies have it for 180 units - Either of Medic and Rally can turn a game on their own. If you have both on that kind of scale you're going to get bored Granfali? :-)

2. 200 Waffen SS... each with 125 morale, 7 square LOS, 150 HE attack, 125 AP attack in 3 charges, plus Medic+Rally+Promote, versus Allied regular infantry on 100 morale, 6 square LOS, 100 HE attack, 80 AP attack, 2 charges... Any one of those advantages can turn a battle by itself... but all of them combined into 200 shooting little packages will make winning boring for you :-)

3. Useless Typhoons... that rarely fly, versus 50x 88s and 40x Wirbelwind, so even when they do fly, they get shot down

4. Only 30 Allied 17-pdr ATGs... versus those 50x 88s and about 80x 75mmPak40s

5. Unkillable German tanks... it's essentially back to the problem of BA2.0.4 beta, when players had 3 or 4 Tigers (or Panthers) and rolled over everything... but in GJS it's worse because we've taken away the risk of any breakdowns...

I'm certain you didn't plan it that way, and this stuff has snuck in, but it will make the game boring... Allies can win versus these odds in one or two battles, if they're clever and they're very lucky... But for the most part, Allies will lose... All of us will get bored by that, no?
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

Hehe... Actually you may have found a perfect solution here...

Let's shuffle teams around?

Mike & I will become Germans
Granfali & Random will play Brits
Morge & GWSU still to decide...

That way we can all play more games (because it does make sense to balance the numbers on both sides).

I promise I'm not saying this (only) because I want to win (although it's nice sometimes ;-)).
But I do want to make GJS a better campaign for the next players.
For that to happen, I think all of us need to try out both sides... So we all realise the pro's and con's of the current rules.

Granfali, I confess we speak from a little prior experience here, because we "cheated" slightly, in that some of us have already tried playing a German "super unit" (II/12/12SS) vs the best Allied unit (69/50) using the Lebisey map. We wanted to get a feel for how that would go...

So, we accept your proposal to swap sides. Fair?
:mrgreen:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

random27 wrote:I don t play this campaign absolutly to win it , i only want to continue to take pleasure every turn, we don thave fought against great tanks but i m sure we have chances to win.
And if we lose it will be very interesting to find solutions.I ve never thought we could win very fast and maybe i ve hopped that it takes a lot of turns just to have pleasure to play :)
Maybe we ve forgotten that granfali is the one who has proposed the campaign and he has thought about a lot of things.
I think we can trust him when he says he has done that only for fun.(i don ' t know him at all in reality but i appreciate a lot what he s doing)
Let s battle against him some more turn to see if it s impossible to win ok ?
In principle, I agree with everything you're saying Random... and I totally agree that Granfali has created something phenomenal here...

Just hear us out on this one... Here's a suggestion. Play me on the modded Lebisey Woods map (attached below). I've created a 2-way with password super. Unzip the new Lebisey.BAM into your GJS folder and we're ready to go. I know from experience that you're a much better player than me, so give it a try as the Allies and see what I can do as the Germans... It replicates the exact situation the Allies will be facing shortly...
Attachments
gjs_lebisey_woods_07pm.bam.zip
(80.68 KiB) Downloaded 84 times
Last edited by GottaLove88s on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
morge4
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by morge4 »

GottaLove88s wrote:Just hear us out on this one... Here's a suggestion. Play me on the modded Lebisey Woods map. I've created a 2-way with password super. Unzip the new Lebisey.BAM into your GJS folder and we're ready to go (file is in the Allied thread). I know from experience that you're a much better player than me, so give it a try as the Allies and see what I can do as the Germans... It replicates the exact situation the Allies will be facing shortly...
Oooppps, I already grabbed the Allied side sorry. I can surrender and let you create another for Random.
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by morge4 »

GottaLove88s wrote:Hehe... Actually you may have found a perfect solution here...

Let's shuffle teams around?

Mike & I will become Germans
Granfali & Random will play Brits
Morge & GWSU still to decide...

That way we can all play more games (because it does make sense to balance the numbers on both sides).

I promise I'm not saying this (only) because I want to win (although it's nice sometimes ;-)).
But I do want to make GJS a better campaign for the next players.
For that to happen, I think all of us need to try out both sides... So we all realise the pro's and con's of the current rules.

Granfali, I confess we speak from a little prior experience here, because we "cheated" slightly, in that some of us have already tried playing a German "super unit" (II/12/12SS) vs the best Allied unit (69/50) using the Lebisey map. We wanted to get a feel for how that would go...

So, we accept your proposal to swap sides. Fair?
:mrgreen:
I have already shown my willingness to "go to the Dark side"! :twisted: I'll swap to German.
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

GottaLove88s wrote:So, we accept your proposal to swap sides. Fair?
:mrgreen:
Ok for me, I proposed it... if random27 wants to play as british he is welcome :wink:
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

Very cool!

Looks like we've got...
"New" Germans = GL88, Morge4
"New" Brits = Granfali, Random27
GWSU still to decide? Mike, I didn't formally ask you? Are you switching to grey or staying in greens? ;-)

I reckon it's good for all of us to play both sides of the game... For the ex-Allies, I suspect we'll realise that it's no party as the Germans after all... For Granfali, I suspect you'll figure out why we were whingeing about Waffen SS, Panthers and not having any bonus buttons...

Let battle recommence... And maybe we can all agree to some changes to the campaign later on down the line...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

7PM Colombelles German attack

Granfali - Random27

Battle finished. Map taken by british side. 125 / 21 Pz withdraws.

Casualities

Germans - 125/21Pz
2 Marder III
2 251/9
5 251/1
2 Infantry
4 Engineer
2 Mortar
British - 3/6
3 Bren Carrier
1 Engineer
1 Flamethrower
3 Infantry
1 Piat
GottaLove88s
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by GottaLove88s »

Granfali wrote:7PM Colombelles German attack

Granfali - Random27

Battle finished. Map taken by british side. 125 / 21 Pz withdraws.

Casualities

Germans - 125/21Pz
2 Marder III
2 251/9
5 251/1
2 Infantry
4 Engineer
2 Mortar
British - 3/6
3 Bren Carrier
1 Engineer
1 Flamethrower
3 Infantry
1 Piat
I hope you two didn't just agree to destroy as many German units as possible then... Enemy collusion, lol??!! :wink:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

GottaLove88s wrote:Very cool!

Looks like we've got...
"New" Germans = GL88, Morge4
"New" Brits = Granfali, Random27
GWSU still to decide? Mike, I didn't formally ask you? Are you switching to grey or staying in greens? ;-)
Sorry, no more that one player with me... difficult to coordinate, think that I have not deploy possibilities, so, every player have to tell me (more or less) what he wants and where. Player who play in my side have to accept this...
Let battle recommence... And maybe we can all agree to some changes to the campaign later on down the line...
Recommence???? From the begining??? Hehehehe, I think you want to suffer a little... I think is better to continue as now (8AM turn) and swap sides only. So panthers and tigers are not so distant :mrgreen:
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

GottaLove88s wrote:I hope you two didn't just agree to destroy as many German units as possible then... Enemy collusion, lol??!! :wink:
Hahahaha, the battle was sentenced some turns ago... before to decide swapping. Random27 beat me up and played very well. Good warrior this man... :twisted:

Bois do Bavent is open, with posibilities to win the map for me, and Hermanville is 3-2 for me in flags with difficult position for british side (but no impossible...).
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by Granfali »

Well, I suppose swapping sides allows german player deploys. It is this can be done John?
k9mike
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Re: [GJS_BA] Invasion

Post by k9mike »

Jon, If you want another for Germans I will join if you want. That will make 2 of us in US...But, if need me to stay with Allies I will. Its getting tough, but it is fun to try and hold...:)
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