Early Rupublic or Punic Romans

CompanionCavalry · Post by **CompanionCavalry** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:07 am

How does the rules apply for the Roman method of a three teir infantry system with PRINCIPES, HASTATI and TRIARI.

Would you form with three BGs in three lines with the gaps as history.

Will the rules allow you to fight in the traditional method with a chance of success.

Edward

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:51 am

We experimented with this in the early stages of rules development. However, we came to the decision that the amount of complication it introduced to the rules was not worth the perceived benefit.

However, the smallest permitted battle group (BG) - 4 bases - represents 1,000 men which is about 6 maniples. Hence a battle group of 4 bases in a 2 x 2 formation in fact already represents 6 maniples in chequerboard formation.

So, in practice, a Roman legion would be represented by 4 "front line" battle groups of 4 bases, (representing the first 2 lines of the legion - with each battle group consisting of hastati and principes) and 2 "third line" battle groups each of 2 bases of triarii.

The triarii give a rear support bonus to the hastati/principes BGs. This works well under the rules and does (in simplified form) bring out the flavor of the multi-line manipular legion.

Representing the formations adopted by individual maniples relative to each other would not be relevant at the scale represented by the rules.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:07 am

I would add to this by noting that the current view of experts such as Adrian Goldsworthy about how the Roman 3 line formation works views the first 2 lines as acting in very close co-operation, almost as one, and so eparate lines represented on the table may not actually be the best representation within a system with a significant degree of abstraction such as FoG.

jlopez · Post by **jlopez** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:26 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:We experimented with this in the early stages of rules development. However, we came to the decision that the amount of complication it introduced to the rules was not worth the perceived benefit.

However, the smalled permitted battle group (BG) - 4 bases - represents 1,000 men which is about 6 maniples. Hence a battle group of 4 bases in a 2 x 2 formation in fact already represents 6 maniples in chequerboard formation.

So, in practice, a Roman legion would be represented by 4 "front line" battle groups of 4 bases, (representing the first 2 lines of the legion - with each battle group consisting of hastati and principes) and 2 "third line" battle groups each of 2 bases of triarii.

The triarii give a rear support bonus to the hastati/principes BGs. This works well under the rules and does (in simplified form) bring out the flavor of the multi-line manipular legion.

Representing the formations adopted by individual maniples relative to each other would not be relevant at the scale represented by the rules.

To be even more specific, not only do the Triarii give a rear support bonus but if you make sure you remove any casualties amongst the Hastati/Principes from the elements in front of the Triarii, when a gap appears you can charge in the Triarii. And they are hard buggers.

Julian

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:33 pm

jlopez wrote:
To be even more specific, not only do the Triarii give a rear support bonus but if you make sure you remove any casualties amongst the Hastati/Principes from the elements in front of the Triarii, when a gap appears you can charge in the Triarii. And they are hard buggers.

Julian

Except if you were fighting more than one BG, there's a base removal priority, no?

jlopez · Post by **jlopez** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:07 pm

peterrjohnston wrote:
jlopez wrote:
To be even more specific, not only do the Triarii give a rear support bonus but if you make sure you remove any casualties amongst the Hastati/Principes from the elements in front of the Triarii, when a gap appears you can charge in the Triarii. And they are hard buggers.

Julian
Except if you were fighting more than one BG, there's a base removal priority, no?

Yes, you would then have to remove pne of the bases facing the enemy BG inflicting most casualties.

Julian

CompanionCavalry · Post by **CompanionCavalry** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:10 pm

Thanks for the replys

So, in practice, a Roman legion would be represented by 4 "front line" battle groups of 4 bases, (representing the first 2 lines of the legion - with each battle group consisting of hastati and principes) and 2 "third line" battle groups each of 2 bases of triarii.

As per above?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTRIARI xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTRIARIxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PRINCIPES, HASTATI xxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATI xxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATIxxxxxxxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATI

So for each base are the figures in a single rank or two ranks for infantry. I'm guessing one rank for the cavalry.

Can you use VELITES in a single rank as skirmishers. How would you withdraw them once contact is made with the enemy, or are they just lambs to the slaughter (LOL).

As per below

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTRIARIxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTRIARIxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PRINCIPES, HASTATIxxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATIxxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATI xxxxxPRINCIPES, HASTATI

xxxxxxxxxxVELITES xxxxxxxxxxxxxVELITES xxxxxxxxxxxxVELITES xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxVELITES

cheers
Edward

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:00 am

Your diagram covers it prettty much exactly. The velites are classed as light foot, and are therefore skirmishers. They are hardly lambs to the slaughter, though, as they can evade when enemy charge them. Well, they can usually evade. Occasionally they will get caught, and then they can become the proverbial lambs.

For each base of the heavy foot the figures would be in one rank. You would usually want to run the battlegroup two bases deep, although they can operate one deep if greater width is desired.

Marc

jlopez · Post by **jlopez** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:28 am

Here's how I would deploy two legions:

.....VVVVVVVV

...HH..HH..HH..HH
...PP...PP..PP...PP

.......T..........T
.......T..........T

The 8 velites I would group into one unit. They are more robust and useful than two units of 4. Deployed in one line they will be ineffective as an offensive unit since they will be outshot and outfought by any enemy skirmishers or shooters. However, they will cover the frontage of the legionnaries and enable them to get into contact without suffering too much from enemy shooting. If you keep this skirmish screen 2,5 MU (inches) from the legionnaries they can evade through them if charged and cannot be caught. Once behind the heavy infantry a general can join them if they need to be rallied or you can send them out to a flank.

For the legionnaries, I would have them in four BGs of 4 with two BGs of 2 Triarii (see diagram above) or two BGs of 8 and one BGs of Triarii of 4. Either way, the Triarii need to be in column behing the junction between the two BGs of legionnaries so that both benefit from the rear support bonus. Figure wise I tend to have my first rank as Hastati and the Principes in the second rank of each legionnary BG. The BGs need to be in two ranks.

Julian

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:35 pm

It's mentioned above that the Triarii give a rear support bonus to the Hastati/Princeps. That sounds great to me since I have a Republican Roman army in 15mm and 25mm already, but I don't see any such POA in my pre-release copy of the rules. I don't see anything in the preliminary list either. Is this something that will be in the final published form of the rules?

Thanks

Peter

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:52 pm

pcelella wrote:It's mentioned above that the Triarii give a rear support bonus to the Hastati/Princeps. That sounds great to me since I have a Republican Roman army in 15mm and 25mm already, but I don't see any such POA in my pre-release copy of the rules. I don't see anything in the preliminary list either. Is this something that will be in the final published form of the rules?

It isn't a POA, it is a Cohesion Test modifier. Cohesion Tests are integral to the combat system in FoG, because "losing" a combat often has no effect unless you also fail a Cohesion Test. Cohesion Tests in FoG are very finely balanced with few modifiers. +1 for rear support makes a very noticeable difference.

It is (cost) effective because the Roman legion has just enough triarii to give rear support to 4 times their number of hastati & principes if deployed as Julian suggests.

Hellenistic armies tend not to have rear support as it is not usually cost effective to have suitable BGs in rear support of the phalanx.

spike · Post by **spike** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:13 pm

[quote="pcelella"]It's mentioned above that the Triarii give a rear support bonus to the Hastati/Princeps. That sounds great to me since I have a Republican Roman army in 15mm and 25mm already, but I don't see any such POA in my pre-release copy of the rules. I don't see anything in the preliminary list either. Is this something that will be in the final published form of the rules?

Thanks

Peter[/quote

Peter,

Rear support is not a combat POA, but it is a bonus on the "morale test" of troops who are supported by having "qualifying troops" to their rear. To be able to qualify as supply rear support, they must be at or within the qualifying distance and qualify as being behing the group claiming the support with a force of 50% or more bases. Skirmishers (Light foot and light horse) can not provide rear support to anyone as they don't qualify as a type that can support, but can receive the bonus if supported by other non skirmishers types.
It sounds complex, but its actualy a simple mechanic.

In the Julian's example above The 8 "Hastati/Princeps" form 2 battle-groups each consisting of 4 bases (in 2x2 formation) in a battle-line, while the 4 "Triarii" are entirely different battle-group in a line one deep so 2 bases are behind each of the "Hastati/Princeps" BG's. The 8 Velites could be 1 battle-group of 8 or 2 battle-groups of 4 bases.

"Hastati/Princeps" provide support to the Velites and the Triatii support the "Hastati/Princeps".

Spike

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:00 pm

Thanks guys

I hadn't gotten to the cohesion section of the rules yet - oops! I guess I should keep reading before yapping away

I've gotten through melee, but haven't finished all the first time reading for the complete rules.

Can't wait to get my Romans on the tabletop - hope to make the Cold Wars tournament.

Peter

Empgamer · Post by **Empgamer** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:41 pm

I might be reading this wrong but didn't RBS say above that the SMALLEST BG was 4 bases? If so, how can there be two BGs of Triarii, each with 2 bases????

I've just mailed Slitherine for the beta having just ordered the rules from them (hoping that the Republican Roman list comes with it) and I'm trying to clarify this as I need to place an order ASAP for an 800pt Repo army.

Empgamer · Post by **Empgamer** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:41 pm

I might be reading this wrong but didn't RBS say above that the SMALLEST BG was 4 bases? If so, how can there be two BGs of Triarii, each with 2 bases????

I've just mailed Slitherine for the beta having just ordered the rules from them (hoping that the Republican Roman list comes with it) and I'm trying to clarify this as I need to place an order ASAP for an 800pt Repo army.

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:59 pm

As far as I know some specialized extremely high-quality can come in BGs of 2 as well as Elephants, Artillery and Warwagons. These include Achaemenid Persian Guard Cavalry, Triarii, Byzantine Kataphraktoi and others.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:15 pm

Sorry not to be clear, what I meant was that the smallest permitted BG of hastati/principes was 4 bases, which amounts to 6 maniples.

As Carlos said, only elephants, war-wagons, artillery and certain (mostly) Elite troops can be in BGs of 2.

Empgamer · Post by **Empgamer** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:32 pm

Thanks for clarification.