Impact CT test caused by unit "not fighting"

[Vespasian28]

I am sure this has been discussed before but I just can't find it now I need it!

Discussion centred around a unit in partial contact at impact causing a CT modifier(i.e Lancers) but then conforming by smallest move into overlap only and subsequently moving off elsewhere. Any ideas?

[Robert241167]

Hi there.

As an example a BG of 4 wide heavy foot are hit by a BG of 4 wide heavy foot and a BG of 2 wide lancer cavalry.

The heavy foot are pretty much in base to base contact whilst the lancer cavalry just hit a fraction of the front edge of the end base. The attacker gets to choose which bases fight as he has 5 bases in contact. He chooses 3 of the heavy foot and the single lancer cavalry base.

The defending heavy foot lose the impact combat and take a minus on the cohesion test even if they didn't lose to the lancers. I've assumed that the attacking heavy foot weren't impact foot for this example.

Both BG's will then conform base to base as they were pretty much lined up that way anyway. The lancer cavalry move the shortest distance then to line up which is into overlap.

Hope this helps.

Rob

Oops. Just spotted your movement point. The lancer cavalry can't move in the current movement phase as they charged but they will be able to move off in future movement phases.

[bbotus]

Agree with Robert's answer.

Lets change it a little, now the defenders are MF instead of HF and they are charged by a MF BG and the lancer cav. The MF survive the impact, the cav moves into overlap for the melee battle (using swords). The MF lose the melee. The MF will take their cohesion test at -1 for losing to cav in the open.

It doesn't matter where the troops are, whether impacting just a little or in overlap. If they are eligible to throw a die in the fight, their appropriate modifiers count in any resulting CT test. The exception would be that if a unit could fight 2 separate BGs at the same time, its CT test modifiers would apply to the the BG it actually fought against that round.

[dave_r]

It doesn't matter where the troops are, whether impacting just a little or in overlap. If they are eligible to throw a die in the fight, their appropriate modifiers count in any resulting CT test.

That's not actually what the rules say. Consider this example - you have three bases of heavy foot and one base of Lancer Cavalry in contact with three bases of enemy foot. You choose to fight with three bases of heavy foot and no bases of Lancer Cavalry.

If the enemy foot lose do they count the -1 for losing to lancers? I'd prefer any replies to be backed up by quotations from the rules, rather than just a natural sense of justice thanks.

[batesmotel]

p. 113: "** Only applies when testing as a result of losing a close combat. The modifier for fighting specific troops types applies whether or not these inflicted more hits on the battle group than it inflicted on them."

p. 134 "'Close Combat' is a general term for impact and melee combat. Once such a combat has been joined, battle groups are deemed to be in close combat until one side breaks off, breaks or is destroyed (or a battle group fighting only as an overlapmoves away).

So the HF are in combat with the lancers and the -1 applies.

Q>E.D.

Chris

[Vespasian28]

Well that seems quite clear but does go against my "natural sense of justice".

Seems that you could charge a pike block with your lancers in company with another pike block and just clip the enemy, not throw any dice but the enemy still get a -1 if they lose and the lancers bugger off somewhere else later.
Admittedly not likely to be a very frequent occurence but it almost happened in a game I played yesterday, hence the original query.

[kal5056]

This is an even more effective technique if you can manage to hit with and then push off your Scythed Chariots. Then they are not destroyed in the JAP if still locked in combat and can go off looking for the next victim.

Gino
SMAC

[bbotus]

Seems that you could charge a pike block with your lancers in company with another pike block and just clip the enemy, not throw any dice but the enemy still get a -1 if they lose and the lancers bugger off somewhere else later.

Well, unsupported pike blocks are in trouble anyway. I'd probably take one more turn and get on their flank with the lancers and then roll up the entire pike line.

[grahambriggs]

It doesn't matter where the troops are, whether impacting just a little or in overlap. If they are eligible to throw a die in the fight, their appropriate modifiers count in any resulting CT test.

That's not actually what the rules say. Consider this example - you have three bases of heavy foot and one base of Lancer Cavalry in contact with three bases of enemy foot. You choose to fight with three bases of heavy foot and no bases of Lancer Cavalry.

If the enemy foot lose do they count the -1 for losing to lancers? I'd prefer any replies to be backed up by quotations from the rules, rather than just a natural sense of justice thanks.

The Cohesion test table says:

"-1: Any troops testing for having lost impact phase combat even partly against lancers**" "**Only applies when testing as a result of losing a close combat. The modifier for fighting specific enemy troop types applies whether or not these inflicted more hits on the battle group than it inflicted on them.". So clearly, as long as you are "fighting" the lancers it doesn't matter whether the lancers' dice hit or not. But are you "fighting" the lancers?

The Combat Mechanism says "If the number of eligible bases is unequal, both sides fight with the lower number of bases. The side with the higher number of bases chooses which of his bases will not fight. His choice must leave every eligible enemy base paired off against one of his."

So, in your example, the player with more bases has decided that none of his lancer bases will fight. Since none of the lancer bases are fighting it follows that the modifier for fighting lancers doesn't apply. Hence no -1.

[grahambriggs]

p. 113: "** Only applies when testing as a result of losing a close combat. The modifier for fighting specific troops types applies whether or not these inflicted more hits on the battle group than it inflicted on them."

p. 134 "'Close Combat' is a general term for impact and melee combat. Once such a combat has been joined, battle groups are deemed to be in close combat until one side breaks off, breaks or is destroyed (or a battle group fighting only as an overlapmoves away).

So the HF are in combat with the lancers and the -1 applies.

Q>E.D.

Chris

No, the lancer players chose which bases would fight, and didn't fight with any lancers. Hence no -1. "If the number of eligible bases is unequal, both sides fight with the lower number of bases. The side with the higher number of bases chooses which of his bases will not fight"

[bbotus]

No, the lancer players chose which bases would fight, and didn't fight with any lancers. Hence no -1. "If the number of eligible bases is unequal, both sides fight with the lower number of bases. The side with the higher number of bases chooses which of his bases will not fight"

Certainly a fair interpretation of the last bullet on page 91.

On the other hand page 134 'Definition of Close Combat' says that once joined the BGs are in close combat. No mention of having to actually through any dice. And, page 113 says that the -1 vs lancers applies whether or not the lancers actually cause any casualties as long as the lancer side wins. I don't think (often a bad idea anyway) that deciding which 2 or 3 eligible bases throw dice in the impact combat is as important as the fact that they are all eligible to fight and you just have to decide which 2 to use for the dice roll. After all, all BGs are stuck in the combat unless one happens to conform to an overlap position during Manoeuver. And even then, unless the overlap BG moves away, it is still in close combat and must pursue if the enemy BG breaks.

[grahambriggs]

I would say the fact that the lancers are not fighting at impact (despite being in close combat) combined with the statement that the modifier applies for fighting specific troop types makes it clear.

If your interpretation were to be used you might say that if a BG of half lancers, half bow, had charged and only the bow base had made contact then the enemy still gets the -1 as the lancers in the BG are in close combat.

[Vespasian28]

Interesting discussion.

At the end of the day if a unit just clips another as part of a joint attack as discussed it then moves into overlap and can then choose to move off.
I would agree though that for the enemy to suffer any CT penalty then that attacking unit should at least throw a die and then, as the rules say, it doesn't matter if it wins or not as long as their side does. That way too the opponent gets to roll against them which seems fair enough so there is risk and gain for both sides.

[bbotus]

If your interpretation were to be used you might say that if a BG of half lancers, half bow, had charged and only the bow base had made contact then the enemy still gets the -1 as the lancers in the BG are in close combat.

Good point. If someone got caught with the bows in front and lancers behind, there would not be any lancers in combat.