Gazala hints?

[balone]

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

[Kamerer]

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

Well, you can't give everything away on the forum now, can you?

IIRC, the bonus is not just for taking and holding the airfield, but for taking all objectives including the far NE victory hex. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I think I didn't get the bonus until getting all hexes.

I don't think the hangar/structure at the end of the coast road triggers any special reward, etc.

[stecal]

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

say what?! Do you have to get a Major victory to get that? They really need to explain the victory conditions & bonuses in plain english. Like what exactly are 25 "core" enemy units & where do I see a tally of my goal toward that?

[brettz123]

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

say what?! Do you have to get a Major victory to get that? They really need to explain the victory conditions & bonuses in plain english. Like what exactly are 25 "core" enemy units & where do I see a tally of my goal toward that?

I believe the CORE enemy units are those with gold borders..... I pretty much just made sure I killed everything on the board. I do think Afrika Korps was pretty bad with explaining objectives though. This should be worked on in some way as several scenarios were more confusing than necessary.

[balone]

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

say what?! Do you have to get a Major victory to get that? They really need to explain the victory conditions & bonuses in plain english. Like what exactly are 25 "core" enemy units & where do I see a tally of my goal toward that?

If you take the southern most airfield you'll get a message stating
"force are moving to take a strategically important airfield (southern
airfield) hold the airfield and you will be rewarded", after you see
This message the airfield turns into a victory hex. I assume you
Would get the reward even with a marginal as long as you hold the

Field, and they will come for it with 4 or 5 units. Lost a good SP arty
Trying to hold it but with a 4000 reward it was well worth it.

[stecal]

I held that airfield. never got 4k points though. I don't see how you could not hold the airfield once it becomes a victory hex - otherwise you just loose the scenario as even a minor victory requires every VP.

[brettz123]

I held that airfield. never got 4k points though. I don't see how you could not hold the airfield once it becomes a victory hex - otherwise you just loose the scenario as even a minor victory requires every VP.

Yeah this happened to me too. I held it but never got the 4k......

[stecal]

now I think I captured the airfield before the announcement that turned it into a VP. Is this a bug that I didnt get the reward?

[kverdon]

Replaying this battle I remembered what really bugged me the first time. My Inf units are being attacked by 2lber and 6lber and taking 2-3 units losses. How is this possible given the fact that, to my knowledge, neither of these AT Guns HAD ANY HE AMMUNITION????? I don't believe they ever made it for the 2lber and the 6lber did not get it until much later, like 1944.

Kevin

[stecal]

Replaying this battle I remembered what really bugged me the first time. My Inf units are being attacked by 2lber and 6lber and taking 2-3 units losses. How is this possible given the fact that, to my knowledge, neither of these AT Guns HAD ANY HE AMMUNITION????? I don't believe they ever made it for the 2lber and the 6lber did not get it until much later, like 1944.

Kevin

That bugged me too

[kverdon]

I took the southern most airfield as well. I never received the message, it did not turn into a victory location and I certainly did not get 4000 prestige. Do you have to eliminate all the "core troops" first before you can trigger the new victory condition? I'm getting a tad frustrated with the buggy/obscure victory conditions in AK.

Kevin

[balone]

I received the message about midway through the scenario and
well before I destroyed half the core units. Maybe level of difficulty
Has something to do with it? I'm playing on colonel.
Maybe a new thread On this subject should be in order?

[Kamerer]

... I'm getting a tad frustrated with the buggy/obscure victory conditions in AK.

Kevin

To be fair, the victory conditions are quite clear. What I think you mean is you are frustrated with the obscure bonus conditions. This is in a few scenarios like Gazala, Dash to the Wire, El Agheila ("Second Offensvie"), etc. where there are bonuses tied to combat achievements - but not explicitly tied to the victory conditions. It's best to think of them for what they are - bonuses. They are not spoon-fed with instructions. And there's nothing "buggy" about them - they have their triggers and conditions and they work consistently.

[kverdon]

What I refer to as "buggy" are the triggers for the bonus conditions, sometimes they don't fire. As stated, I've captured the AF in Gazala but the "bonus" has not triggered. It also can be more than "Bonus" conditions as in one scenario I Could not complete a Decisive Victory because the Scenario decisive victory conditions were tied to objectives that you could not complete unless you unlocked them. I completed the decisive victory conditions as listed but still got a marginal.

Kevin

[Tarrak]

I don't think the bonus triggers itself are buggy but this bug is caused by the "autosave bug" that is already known and hopefully will be fixed soon.

As brief explanation: The autosave the game is doing is actually done before the triggers fire but after the game is reloaded from the autosave they do not fire so if someone reloads the game in the turn where the triggers were supposed the fire they actually don't and the victory or bonus condition bugs out. As a workaround just do not use autosaves until next patch. If you really need to be able to reload every turn save manually at the begin.

[Kamerer]

What I refer to as "buggy" are the triggers for the bonus conditions, sometimes they don't fire. As stated, I've captured the AF in Gazala but the "bonus" has not triggered. It also can be more than "Bonus" conditions as in one scenario I Could not complete a Decisive Victory because the Scenario decisive victory conditions were tied to objectives that you could not complete unless you unlocked them. I completed the decisive victory conditions as listed but still got a marginal.

Kevin

Oh my apologies, I did not realize this or missed that part of the discussion.

[Molve]

Lots of speculation here.

This is the deal on the 4000 prestige reward... Please stop reading now if you don't want SPOILERS!

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You don't have to take the Bir Gubi airstrip to win the scenario, but if you don't you won't get the bonus reward. Even if you do take it, you still have to more or less fulfil the Decisive Victory conditions before you get it.

If you have questions regarding the exact specifics, read on. Otherwise DETAILED SPOILERS coming up!

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To repeat the three conditions for a Decisive win: A) no Primary Objectives held by allies B) no Secondary Objectives held by allies and C) leaving no more than 13 allied CORE units on the map.
Let's make that C) clear: it's CORE units. For instance, all minefields are auxilary and can be left alone and still win.

Normally there are no Secondary Objectives on this map - only by capturing the Bir Gubi airfield will one appear (the airfield hex). The decisive win triggers regardless (since no Secondary Objectives will be in allied hands if none exist).

The prestige bonus pay-out, on the other hand, is triggered by a slightly but crucially different set of conditions: A) no Primary Objectives held by allies B) one Secondary Objective held by axis and C) leaving no more than 13 allied CORE units on the map.

As you can see, this new condition B can only be fulfilled by having a secondary hex in the first place, and to make this happen, you have no alternative - on this map anyway - to taking the Bir Gubi airfield.

Of course, by taking the airfield (and creating the opportunity for the bonus prestige) you also unleash the "offmap" units - the Allied counterattack force that will try to retake it. (These allied units do not appear if the airfield never falls in Axis hands)

To dispel speculation:
* the prestige reward is not directly tied to any specific unit on the map. For instance, it has nothing to do with the sneaky SAS paradrops or the Hangar. And you can leave every unit in the Allied counterattack alive and still get the prestige reward - you don't have to kill them specifically, and since they're auxiliaries, they don't count toward victory conditions. (Of course, unless you kill them off the map, they will tie down your units)
* it is not directly tied to any win conditions. That said, since the triggering conditions are pretty much identical to Decisive victory, getting the bonus also mean you're about to win a Decisive win, and the 4000 prestige will only ever be paid out at the very end of the scenario. (I guess theoretically you could still lose the scenario despite getting the reward, if some rogue Allied unit manages to recapture a Victory hex and hold onto it until time runs out... but by that time, most Allied units should be fleeing or be hopelessly demoralized)
* Normally I'd say a Marginal Victory won't get the reward. And if you get the reward, you will get more than a Marginal... (But again, I guess it IS theoretically possible to get the reward AND a marginal win: if the Allies retake a victory hex AND buy new units that you do nothing about, then... I did tell you the bonus trigger wasn't directly tied to the Victory Conditions)

Nobody mentioned the 4000 prestige reward for holding the
South east airfield. That was a nice surprise and relief as my
Forces needed lots of reinforcements. I also noticed some more
of those hangers east of Tobruk. Any free units for taking those
Out?

The reward is for winning the scenario "in a decisive manner" AND having taken the airstrip AND holding onto it.

Hangers doesn't have anything to do with the prestige bonus.

Well, you can't give everything away on the forum now, can you?

Of course you can. Where else would we discuss scenario specifics?

I held that airfield. never got 4k points though. I don't see how you could not hold the airfield once it becomes a victory hex - otherwise you just loose the scenario as even a minor victory requires every VP.

You must hold the airfield, yes. Both to win at all and to get the prestige bonus.
However, unless you kill off all but 13 allied core units you will only get a Marginal Victory and no prestige bonus.

now I think I captured the airfield before the announcement that turned it into a VP. Is this a bug that I didnt get the reward?

No that is exactly what should (and does) happen.

If you do not capture the airfield, the next-turn announcement will not happen, the airfield isn't turned into a Secondary Objective, and you will never have even a chance at getting the bonus prestige. You can still win both Marginal and Decisive victories though.

My Inf units are being attacked by 2lber and 6lber and taking 2-3 units losses. How is this possible given the fact that, to my knowledge, neither of these AT Guns HAD ANY HE AMMUNITION?????

This is a game, a non-perfect simulation and not actual reality.

Maybe level of difficulty
Has something to do with it?

No.

And there's nothing "buggy" about them - they have their triggers and conditions and they work consistently.

On the other hand, if enough of your customers become frustrated there IS a problem.

Not all "bugs" need a technical origin. Lots of software that is "bug free" and "working as intended" still count as failures.

What I refer to as "buggy" are the triggers for the bonus conditions, sometimes they don't fire. As stated, I've captured the AF in Gazala but the "bonus" has not triggered. It also can be more than "Bonus" conditions as in one scenario I Could not complete a Decisive Victory because the Scenario decisive victory conditions were tied to objectives that you could not complete unless you unlocked them. I completed the decisive victory conditions as listed but still got a marginal.

You're probably referring to the "Second Offensive" scenario, but let's keep that discussion elsewhere.

Regarding "the triggers for the bonus conditions" you and Kamerer mean different things.

From a technical implementation and scenario editing standpoint, there are two triggers:
1) the trigger that starts of the bonus "quest" shall we say. In this case, by conquering the Bir Gebi airstrip, you trigger several things:
1a) the message about the counterattack
1b) the units comprising said counterattack
1c) and most crucial, the airstrip becomes the scenario's only secondary objective

and

2) the trigger that finishes and completes this "quest" - if you (more or less) win a Decisive and there is a Secondary hex (that you hold) the 4000 prestige is paid out immediately (and you can probably just hit end of turn and win the Decisive victory)

What Kamerer is saying is that trigger 1 will probably have triggered just fine.

It's only trigger 2 that didn't go off. And I can easily see your frustration, since you are never told when and how you cash in this reward, and if you go on to win a Marginal Victory, you will feel as if the "quest" didn't work properly...

When in fact it works perfectly. It is quite by intention: the scenario designer WANTS you to scratch your head and wonder what you need to do to gain a reward, and what that reward is. The problem though is that he or she probably overestimates your curiosity visavi your frustration!

I don't think the bonus triggers itself are buggy but this bug is caused by the "autosave bug" that is already known and hopefully will be fixed soon.

FYI: While I am sure the autosave bug can mess up your game, neither this nor the other scenario is directly affected by any such bug.

In this case, there isn't a "bug" per se. Quite possibly there is frustration and misunderstanding due to an almost complete lack of information, but no bug in the technical sense.
In the case of "Second Offensive", yes I'd call it a bug that you absolutely must retreat in order to gain a chance of getting a Decisive Win, but again this is a consequence of not-enough-information and probably is not directly related to autosaves.


M

[captainjack]

Not long ago I was reading a report about a 6pounder taking out a Tiger. The report noted that the kept the Tiger under fire with small arms and machine guns to keep it buttoned up, which reduced its ability to return fire accurately - the way I read the report it looked like the use of the small arms fire was pretty much essential to the success. I am pretty sure the link was on one of these forum pages - maybe someone else remembers where.

So, while it's annoying having 2lbr and 6lbr AT guns beating up infantry (yes, mine too) it makes a bit more sense if you think that the AT unit supporting weapons are probably doing at least some of the damage.

[hmshood]

Gadzukes those Matilda's sure taker a beating...and keep on ticking...Gazala is fun scenario!

[ThvN]

Matildas are very tough; going head-to-head will wear your tanks down, air attacks or artillery support usually works, or a very well-placed 88mm. But in Gazala, that's very difficult. Thankfully they are slow.

Not long ago I was reading a report about a 6pounder taking out a Tiger. The report noted that the kept the Tiger under fire with small arms and machine guns to keep it buttoned up, which reduced its ability to return fire accurately - the way I read the report it looked like the use of the small arms fire was pretty much essential to the success. I am pretty sure the link was on one of these forum pages - maybe someone else remembers where.

http://northirishhorse.net/documents/25 ... ger-2.html

Thats very true, an old infantry lesson in case of a close encounter with tanks: keep it buttoned-up and try to blind it by targeting vision devices (periscopes, vision slits, sights), or use smoke grenades, or even dust or mud, to blind them.