Kiev 43

[ceandersen]

I finally got Kiev'43. But after finishing this suffered scenario and start the campaign of 44 with the importing my staff of 43, my prestige remained the same!
But if I start a new game in the campaign of 44 he already comes prestige 7000.
This means that I was very wrong in my campaign of 43 or I do another procedure to be added to the prestige? For in the beginning of every scenario we have an addition to prestige and without it is impossible to restore the losses of troops and last battle.

[huertgenwald]

Well you can always gain points by capturing (all) flagged objectives and taking decisive victories..
Do you always use elite replacements ? Do you take heavy losses in combat ?
Which difficulty setting do you use ?
Please elaborate.

[Kerensky]

This is correct, victory at Kiev 43 rewards very little prestige.
The reason for this being the dire historical situation, and also the design of the follow up first 1944 East Scenario. Korsun Pocket isn't terribly difficult, and as you successfully airlift transports into the pocket, you receive large prestige bonuses.

[ceandersen]

This is correct, victory at Kiev 43 rewards very little prestige.
The reason for this being the dire historical situation, and also the design of the follow up first 1944 East Scenario. Korsun Pocket isn't terribly difficult, and as you successfully airlift transports into the pocket, you receive large prestige bonuses.

But in this case I better not go into battle kiev43, because at the beginning I have 4000 prestige.
If I pass Kiev without putting my troops, with only the auxiliary, I'll save my troops and my prestige.
I'll lost Kiev's battle, but I think this will not prejudice me in the first scenario of 44, right?

[ceandersen]

Well you can always gain points by capturing (all) flagged objectives and taking decisive victories..
Do you always use elite replacements ? Do you take heavy losses in combat ?
Which difficulty setting do you use ?
Please elaborate.

In kiev 43, last scenario of 43, the battle is very hard to achieve the main objectives, but still I managed a victory decissiva. And each town the more you catch it yields only 50 prestiges. That is, do not pay a replacement power unit. So I do not think it's worth taking cities that are not the main goal.
Moreover, after the first wave of Russians coming from the south, the south russian's cities are vulnerable and this is a good time to fight back and achieve good performance with fewer drives. but does not yield much prestige.
During combat I replacement between elite and normal, but during the 'rest', before positioning the troops always put elite.
The difficulty I put in more and other points of difficulties enabled.

[ceandersen]

This is correct, victory at Kiev 43 rewards very little prestige.
The reason for this being the dire historical situation, and also the design of the follow up first 1944 East Scenario. Korsun Pocket isn't terribly difficult, and as you successfully airlift transports into the pocket, you receive large prestige bonuses.

But in this case I better not go into battle kiev43, because at the beginning I have 4000 prestige.
If I pass Kiev without putting my troops, with only the auxiliary, I'll save my troops and my prestige.
I'll lost Kiev's battle, but I think this will not prejudice me in the first scenario of 44, right?

For these reasons I have outlined is that I think this fact is a BUG strategic game, because if you do not go to battle you gain more prestige than fighting. I'm waiting for your comments!

[Kamerer]

I have never finished Kiev43 and started '44 with less prestige than prior. Even after rebuilding units to the same level and purchasing one more, I was net +550 - and this was at "Rommel" level with 1/2 prestige awarded. This was the last time I played it a few months ago; I went back and looked at saved games.

Also, Kiev43 is a fun scenario I thought. The river is not fordable, so it is possible to defend very easily/cheaply until the opponent is worn down. And you are right, clearing the airborne south and then crossing and driving north unhinges his attack. If you are having trouble maintaining prestige, try using more artillery to suppress the attacked units so you do not suffer damage when eliminating them. Coordinating artillery, air, then attack is the key to minimizing costly damage. It is important in '44 with larger forces to deal with and less prestige to make good the losses.

because if you do not go to battle you gain more prestige than fighting

There are a number of scenarios where that can be true, depending upon how you fight them, and what prestige level/difficulty level you are playing with. It is difficult to know ahead of time, so usually best to fight carefully. And if you just skip a scenario, you can miss interesting tactical situations that are fun, challenging, and educational.

[Zhivago]

If done correctly, you can clear the board of Russian units by the end of the game. You are also fighting for experience for your units, so wiping out more Russian troops will help you accomplish this. The key to the scenario is holding Kiev while sweeping south and clearing out the Russians, and then crossing the bridgeheads and coming up north on the other side of the river.

[ceandersen]

I have never finished Kiev43 and started '44 with less prestige than prior. Even after rebuilding units to the same level and purchasing one more, I was net +550 - and this was at "Rommel" level with 1/2 prestige awarded. This was the last time I played it a few months ago; I went back and looked at saved games.

Also, Kiev43 is a fun scenario I thought. The river is not fordable, so it is possible to defend very easily/cheaply until the opponent is worn down. And you are right, clearing the airborne south and then crossing and driving north unhinges his attack. If you are having trouble maintaining prestige, try using more artillery to suppress the attacked units so you do not suffer damage when eliminating them. Coordinating artillery, air, then attack is the key to minimizing costly damage. It is important in '44 with larger forces to deal with and less prestige to make good the losses.

because if you do not go to battle you gain more prestige than fighting

There are a number of scenarios where that can be true, depending upon how you fight them, and what prestige level/difficulty level you are playing with. It is difficult to know ahead of time, so usually best to fight carefully. And if you just skip a scenario, you can miss interesting tactical situations that are fun, challenging, and educational.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm not complaining that start with less prestige than done.
I finish 43 with 1000 prestige and start 44 with the same prestige. But usually all scenarios that start you add some prestige. Why this case Kiev43 ended with a decisive victory and start new campaign in 44 and keeps my prestige in 1000? At the start of turn 44 I should not gain some prestige?
For knowledge, as mentioned, I'm playing in difficulty Field Marshal.

[ceandersen]

If done correctly, you can clear the board of Russian units by the end of the game. You are also fighting for experience for your units, so wiping out more Russian troops will help you accomplish this. The key to the scenario is holding Kiev while sweeping south and clearing out the Russians, and then crossing the bridgeheads and coming up north on the other side of the river.

I'm using this tactic, but from what I saw, I must also hold kiev and take, or at least stick very close to Boryspil, to stop the flow of replacement units. Do you agree?
In Kiev, retreat to the line of the Dnieper, because this line can handle better the Bolshevik attack. Because I get four units on the front line and can leave some tanks behind the city as reserve when ends the ammunition from the front line or as the front-line units are frank. also because of the terrain can leave seven artillery support. avoiding or minimizing some attacks.
When I see an interruption in the flow of troops inigimas, I quick climb up to Boryspil. But this only happens next shift 12 to 14. From this point until the end of the scene missing very little time to take the whole map without risking large losses. At this same time my troops coming from the south are already near Zhuravka, further west, almost forming a line with Divychiky, difficult to achieve because of the armored units SU-85 and IS-1 that are around the city.
Any tips? Am I doing something wrong?

[Zhivago]

If done correctly, you can clear the board of Russian units by the end of the game. You are also fighting for experience for your units, so wiping out more Russian troops will help you accomplish this. The key to the scenario is holding Kiev while sweeping south and clearing out the Russians, and then crossing the bridgeheads and coming up north on the other side of the river.

I'm using this tactic, but from what I saw, I must also hold kiev and take, or at least stick very close to Boryspil, to stop the flow of replacement units. Do you agree?
In Kiev, retreat to the line of the Dnieper, because this line can handle better the Bolshevik attack. Because I get four units on the front line and can leave some tanks behind the city as reserve when ends the ammunition from the front line or as the front-line units are frank. also because of the terrain can leave seven artillery support. avoiding or minimizing some attacks.
When I see an interruption in the flow of troops inigimas, I quick climb up to Boryspil. But this only happens next shift 12 to 14. From this point until the end of the scene missing very little time to take the whole map without risking large losses. At this same time my troops coming from the south are already near Zhuravka, further west, almost forming a line with Divychiky, difficult to achieve because of the armored units SU-85 and IS-1 that are around the city.
Any tips? Am I doing something wrong?

I just got done playing the scenario a few minutes ago. You have to get your armor adjacent to Russian cities as you work your way up from the south. This will prevent the AI from spawning units around them. In the game I played tonight, it was a hard slog. I put almost all of my Tigers and Elephants in the defense of Kiev. I have four Brumbar units, and used a couple of these, as well as some other artillery units and put them behind the heavy armor. The only thing you need to really be concerned with is one of your heavy armor units running out of ammo. It is also dangerous to bring in a lot of air-support until you have advanced enough to the south and east of Kiev to clear out the enemy AA. The AI kept spawning SU-85s and IS-1s, but eventually, the more cities you take, it just started making recon units, which usually can be destroyed with one hit from a heavy armor or anti-tank unit. I won a decisive victory on turn 20 of 22. I could have gotten the airfield and city in the uppermost right quadrant of the map, but the game automatically gave me the DV at turn 20 after taking all other cities.

You just need to move carefully, and cautiously once you get east of the river. Your infantry units should be kept at a safe distance most of the game, because if an infantry unit gets caught out in the open it will be wiped out by IS-1s or other Russian armor. Also try to have your mobile arty behind your armor when you can. Finally, give priority to wiping out weakened enemy units. The AI will continue to rebuild/repair weakened units. It is rough when you manage to get an IS-1 to 1 or 2, and then the AI rebuilds it to a 10 the next turn.

Good luck!

[Kerensky]

As the DLC continue later into the war, more and more the reality of the historical position is brought home to the player. There will be times where decisive victory seems impossible, which would not be ahistorical at all, considering the events of 1944 and 1945 on the Eastern Front. In addition to this historical difficulty, we wanted to have content that continued to challenge players who may not only have brought their CORE all the way from 1939, but may also have even more extensive experience with the game.

If some scenarios are too difficult, as they sometimes can be, there are several possible approaches. Replaying a scenario is always an option, using the time to learn new strategy. At the start of any DLC, there is always an option to lower, or increase, the general difficulty setting. Sometimes, especially on certain scenarios, sometimes you just have to admit defeat. Think of it as trading ground for time. Instead of engaging in a battle you know you can't win, just skip the battle by losing the scenario without even risking your forces.

The DLC, and Panzer Corps Campaigns as a rule, are designed so that failure is not necessarily the end of the world, but sometimes a necessary evil, as retreat often was during this period of the war. For details on which scenarios can continue your campaign even with a loss, this guide is a good reference.
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=29134

In the long run, challenging scenarios are rewarding goals to revisit and eventually overcome, perhaps for a future play through.

[brettz123]

In kiev 43, last scenario of 43, the battle is very hard to achieve the main objectives, but still I managed a victory decissiva. And each town the more you catch it yields only 50 prestiges. That is, do not pay a replacement power unit. So I do not think it's worth taking cities that are not the main goal.

This is your big mistake if you arent taking non-victory towns and cities you are losing out on thousands of points of prestige throughout the entire game.

[Zhivago]

I don't know how the computer's prestige is calculated, but it seemed to me that the more towns I was able to capture in the last half of the game, the less potent the weaponry the AI was able to spawn. By the end of my game (FM difficulty level) the AI was down to spawning recon vehicles.

Furthermore, another reason that it is not a bad idea to go on the offensive if possible is that the AI was spawning IS-1's in the closest cities to the fighting. Taking those cities, or at least keeping a German unit in an adjacent hex, helped keep the re-spawning further away from my troops giving me some breathing room.

[deducter]

On FM, the computer gets 150% prestige. The major source of the computer's prestige is the initial prestige and per turn income. In Kiev43, the AI starts with 1500 prestige and 200 per turn, all multiplied by 1.5. Of course it also gets some income from capturing hexes, but that is a relatively small percentage of its total prestige component.

To my knowledge, capturing the AI's flags does not reduce its prestige (same mechanics, in MP if you capture someone's hex it doesn't reduce the player's prestige). I think the only way to reduce prestige is to use a STR bomber on a VH city hex, but the amount is negligible. If the AI is spawning recon units, it just means you've killed off all the IS-1/SU-85 that it can spawn and it ran out of prestige to buy more.

[Zhivago]

On FM, the computer gets 150% prestige. The major source of the computer's prestige is the initial prestige and per turn income. In Kiev43, the AI starts with 1500 prestige and 200 per turn, all multiplied by 1.5. Of course it also gets some income from capturing hexes, but that is a relatively small percentage of its total prestige component.

To my knowledge, capturing the AI's flags does not reduce its prestige (same mechanics, in MP if you capture someone's hex it doesn't reduce the player's prestige). I think the only way to reduce prestige is to use a STR bomber on a VH city hex, but the amount is negligible. If the AI is spawning recon units, it just means you've killed off all the IS-1/SU-85 that it can spawn and it ran out of prestige to buy more.

What is the cost of an IS-1 or an SU-85? If they can build six of them at a time each turn, and reinforce/repair wounded units, it seems like they are getting more than that.

[deducter]

IS-1 costs 621 and the SU-85 costs 392.

Let's say the game goes for 20 turns, so the AI's total prestige is 1500+4000 = 5500. Multiply this by 1.5 and we can 8250, let's round up to 8500 since the AI does manage to capture a few hexes here and there. Subtract off 1000 prestige for the AI to reinforcement, and the AI has 7500 prestige left to buy stuff with. That's about 12 IS-1 (7200ish) or 18 SU-85, or some combination of those units. The exact number depends on a whole bunch of variables, most notably how many core slots the AI has and how many slots it has open, and furthermore just how much prestige the AI spent reinforcing/overstrenthing its units. The AI will elite reinforce and overstrength its units if it has a lot of prestige.

In summary, a quick calculation shows that it's entirely possible for the AI to buy 10+ IS-1 to throw at you towards the end.

[Zhivago]

IS-1 costs 621 and the SU-85 costs 392.

Let's say the game goes for 20 turns, so the AI's total prestige is 1500+4000 = 5500. Multiply this by 1.5 and we can 8250, let's round up to 8500 since the AI does manage to capture a few hexes here and there. Subtract off 1000 prestige for the AI to reinforcement, and the AI has 7500 prestige left to buy stuff with. That's about 12 IS-1 (7200ish) or 18 SU-85, or some combination of those units. The exact number depends on a whole bunch of variables, most notably how many core slots the AI has and how many slots it has open, and furthermore just how much prestige the AI spent reinforcing/overstrenthing its units. The AI will elite reinforce and overstrength its units if it has a lot of prestige.

In summary, a quick calculation shows that it's entirely possible for the AI to buy 10+ IS-1 to throw at you towards the end.

I fought off a lot more than 10 spawned IS-1s and SU 85's. I don't make a habit of counting all of the units I destroy each scenario, but it still seems off to me. I'd like to hear from the devs as to the capabilities of the AI for buying stuff in Kiev 43.

[ceandersen]

I just got done playing the scenario a few minutes ago. You have to get your armor adjacent to Russian cities as you work your way up from the south. This will prevent the AI from spawning units around them. In the game I played tonight, it was a hard slog. I put almost all of my Tigers and Elephants in the defense of Kiev. I have four Brumbar units, and used a couple of these, as well as some other artillery units and put them behind the heavy armor. The only thing you need to really be concerned with is one of your heavy armor units running out of ammo. It is also dangerous to bring in a lot of air-support until you have advanced enough to the south and east of Kiev to clear out the enemy AA. The AI kept spawning SU-85s and IS-1s, but eventually, the more cities you take, it just started making recon units, which usually can be destroyed with one hit from a heavy armor or anti-tank unit. I won a decisive victory on turn 20 of 22. I could have gotten the airfield and city in the uppermost right quadrant of the map, but the game automatically gave me the DV at turn 20 after taking all other cities.

You just need to move carefully, and cautiously once you get east of the river. Your infantry units should be kept at a safe distance most of the game, because if an infantry unit gets caught out in the open it will be wiped out by IS-1s or other Russian armor. Also try to have your mobile arty behind your armor when you can. Finally, give priority to wiping out weakened enemy units. The AI will continue to rebuild/repair weakened units. It is rough when you manage to get an IS-1 to 1 or 2, and then the AI rebuilds it to a 10 the next turn.

Good luck!

Very good summary of the correct tactic, but I think I can not follow it.
Apparently you have more armored units than me. And I'll be honest, this is the first senary I make more than twice, usually only give myself permission to repeat once, but got so frustrated in Kiev already repeated several times.

See if mile unit list is consistent with your:
5x - Infantry
7x - Panzer (as IVh)
6x - Other tanks
9x - Artillery pieces
5x - Fighters
1x - Tactical Bomber
so far so light weapons for this battle so arduous ...
4x Panther
5x Tiger
1x Elefant

I'm starting with the most heavy tanks around Kiev and only 1 tiger and 1 Panther to sweep the southern region, with the help of several smaller units of Panzer IV tanks and other old or captured.
If I do not do well, I can not move on Kiev.
I'm a nightmare, I never had to redo both a scenario! This is my challenge this ...
But following your advice, I will try to leave less heavy tanks in Kiev, just enough to hold the waves Bolsheviks and put more pressure on the south, then move to the North. Think this correct?

[Zhivago]

I just got done playing the scenario a few minutes ago. You have to get your armor adjacent to Russian cities as you work your way up from the south. This will prevent the AI from spawning units around them. In the game I played tonight, it was a hard slog. I put almost all of my Tigers and Elephants in the defense of Kiev. I have four Brumbar units, and used a couple of these, as well as some other artillery units and put them behind the heavy armor. The only thing you need to really be concerned with is one of your heavy armor units running out of ammo. It is also dangerous to bring in a lot of air-support until you have advanced enough to the south and east of Kiev to clear out the enemy AA. The AI kept spawning SU-85s and IS-1s, but eventually, the more cities you take, it just started making recon units, which usually can be destroyed with one hit from a heavy armor or anti-tank unit. I won a decisive victory on turn 20 of 22. I could have gotten the airfield and city in the uppermost right quadrant of the map, but the game automatically gave me the DV at turn 20 after taking all other cities.

You just need to move carefully, and cautiously once you get east of the river. Your infantry units should be kept at a safe distance most of the game, because if an infantry unit gets caught out in the open it will be wiped out by IS-1s or other Russian armor. Also try to have your mobile arty behind your armor when you can. Finally, give priority to wiping out weakened enemy units. The AI will continue to rebuild/repair weakened units. It is rough when you manage to get an IS-1 to 1 or 2, and then the AI rebuilds it to a 10 the next turn.

Good luck!

Very good summary of the correct tactic, but I think I can not follow it.
Apparently you have more armored units than me. And I'll be honest, this is the first senary I make more than twice, usually only give myself permission to repeat once, but got so frustrated in Kiev already repeated several times.

See if mile unit list is consistent with your:
5x - Infantry
7x - Panzer (as IVh)
6x - Other tanks
9x - Artillery pieces
5x - Fighters
1x - Tactical Bomber
so far so light weapons for this battle so arduous ...
4x Panther
5x Tiger
1x Elefant

I'm starting with the most heavy tanks around Kiev and only 1 tiger and 1 Panther to sweep the southern region, with the help of several smaller units of Panzer IV tanks and other old or captured.
If I do not do well, I can not move on Kiev.
I'm a nightmare, I never had to redo both a scenario! This is my challenge this ...
But following your advice, I will try to leave less heavy tanks in Kiev, just enough to hold the waves Bolsheviks and put more pressure on the south, then move to the North. Think this correct?

My core has about 10-12 infantry units. Every time I get an SE infantry unit, I upgrade it to a grenadier. My core is always at least 20-25% infantry. I would also recommend increasing the amount of your tactical bombers. I have four ME-410's, and they are not only useful in finishing off Russian fighters my FW190s wound, but with experience and overstrength are effective at damaging (and even severely weakening) Russian armored units to allow them to be easily finished off by German armor or even heavy infantry. I also have six FW 190's. I also have one HE-177 strategic bomber, but because of core restrictions, I have not been able to use it in a long time. Another very powerful unit that I recommend you get more of in your core is the Elefant. They are superb against enemy armor units, especially when they are over-strength. I had four of these on the battlefield at Kiev. I only have one towed arty piece (a Mars 21). The rest are all mobile guns (four Brumbars, two captured SU-122s, and three armored Sigs (?) The Brumbar is one of my favorite weapons in the game. It can survive repeated enemy attacks with little damage because of its strong defense, and it packs a punch in its role as a supporting artillery piece. I have about six Panthers and six Tigers, and no other armor except for the Elefants.

Just keep experimenting with the core. When you get find a balance that suits your playing skills and strengths, you will take Kiev43!