Polish Winged Hussars Value

[rbodleyscott]

I accept that the Polish Winged Hussars are slightly overpriced.

However, their effect is as intended - they have to be able to beat their historical opponents as they did historically (and they do). They don't have to be super-troops against all comers - that is entering fantasy land (in which Poland conquers Europe).

I have used the Later Polish army in tournament, and my analysis is that their problem is a lack of Superior foot, not the (slight) over-price of the Hussars.

(Oh, and to the original poster, the Raitars are absolute pants).

[MatteoPasi]

I agree with Richard, PWH are slightly overpriced, only slightly becouse people forget that they can retreat in joint fase if they couldn't disrupt enemy (and if they are disrupted) where their adversary can't do

Polish problem are infantry: heavy weapon its expensive and not so effective (never apply the POA and as they are already shot the benefit for not considering the enermy armour doesn't worth).

Matteo

[list_lurker]

as I recall during beta testing the authors did take care to make sure that historical 'funnies' were not given undue advantages and overpointed as such. As a military archetype the winged hussar didn't endure and wasn’t copied by their contemporaries

I think as troop type they are ‘ok’ against their contemporaries (as Ethan says). The issue is fighting anachronistic opponents – like later cuirassier – which definitely are ‘de jour’, which is a more difficult argument (and more a question of game balance).

That said I enjoyed dispatching RBS’s winged hussars at the last tournament but I will attribute that to the dice!!

[Three]

I don't want them to be fantasy land super-troopers, I'd just like to use them on the table, I've got quite a few of the blighters and they are wasting away.

A contemporary opponent is Early Danish, and they get up to 24 bases of Sup HA Cuirassiers pistol/pistol from 1573. Good luck taking that on

Making them Horse in the Early PLC, like the Lancer Banners they replaced, would even things up

[list_lurker]

I feel your pain, with all my warband armies languishing on the shelf from FoG:AM

its a pity as the PWH do look nice on the table

[Three]

I feel your pain, with all my warband armies languishing on the shelf from FoG:AM

its a pity as the PWH do look nice on the table

I've used warbands in Ancients recently giving someone else practice games for Britcon - on a 60"x40" table they are more than viable which is more than can be said about the Hussars

[timmy1]

So should we make a formal request to change the cost of Impact Mounted from 3 points to 2 points? The author accepts that they are slightly overpriced. Not enough to make them super troops but enough to get the back on the table (just so my Salvo Swedes can finally get to have a go at the Polish foot...)

[hazelbark]

So should we make a formal request to change the cost of Impact Mounted from 3 points to 2 points? The author accepts that they are slightly overpriced. Not enough to make them super troops but enough to get the back on the table (just so my Salvo Swedes can finally get to have a go at the Polish foot...)

They I am sure will put that on the table when the next version is considered. I hear those discussions are scheduled to begin by 2025.

[timmy1]

Dan

Richard has proved to be responsive to imbalances in the rules so far. I am sure if we can put together a convincing case he would be willing to consider it for the next version of the errata (due along any day now I expect). The Winged Hussars are such nice looking troops it would be a shame to see them disappear from our tables for want of an, apparently, simple fix.

Regards
Tim

[ethan]

A contemporary opponent is Early Danish, and they get up to 24 bases of Sup HA Cuirassiers pistol/pistol from 1573. Good luck taking that on

I believe there is some debate as to whether this makes sense for Danes to have 24 bases of these. OTOH, if you try to field 24 bases of them you are spending 384 points on troops that cannot defeat infantry frontally and it isn't like you are going to have a lot of infantry of your own to make that happen...

[Three]

A contemporary opponent is Early Danish, and they get up to 24 bases of Sup HA Cuirassiers pistol/pistol from 1573. Good luck taking that on

I believe there is some debate as to whether this makes sense for Danes to have 24 bases of these. OTOH, if you try to field 24 bases of them you are spending 384 points on troops that cannot defeat infantry frontally and it isn't like you are going to have a lot of infantry of your own to make that happen...

The point was that is a contemporary opponent, so it's more than enough to take on Polish Infantry frontally, although you'd have to ask why you'd want to take on infantry frontally if you had so much cavalry?

384 points gets you 6 BGs of 4 Cuirassiers but only 4 BGs of 4 Hussars (368 points), which is kind of the point of this discussion? It's comparing like with like, and for the points, Hussars just aren't worth it.

[Maniakes]

I'm another frustrated Pole (... if you know what I mean). One quick fix might be to allow some of the Hussars to be Elite. I know it would make them even more expensive but it would give them a bit more poke - and since most of the extra re-rolls would be when they were a POA down it wouldn't be an excessive bonus.

After all if Finnish Hakkapeliita can be Elite why not Winged Hussars?

[timmy1]

Dave

Like that option, especially given their reputation.

[nickdives]

I am more of a scenario based gamer than points and never competition based. For club nights I do use points, however what strikes me is that a Polish Army in the field say 1620-40 had a very large portion of Hussars, however for a club night game against a standard European army the only Hussars on the table will be fake otherwise one ends up with a small force that is outclassed and out manouvred by Cuirassiers!

In the same way some armies like the Ottomans generally relied on a massive numerical advantage, ok for the campaign/scenario but not so good for the point game.

One must also ask, as has been alluded to above, how often did the Hussars every face "Western" type armies?

[kevinj]

I think that if any fix for this is going to be provided it will not involve points adjustment, at least not in the near future. Not only have these not typically been applied via an erratum, they were excluded very early from the revision of Fog AM, partly because of the knock on effects on the Army Lists. Also there have not been fixes provided in other circumstances where points values are anomalous, e.g. Cavalry with Light Lance who cost more than the equivalent Horse, but are actually worse.

For me, reclassifying the Hussars as Elite is a measure that seems to be based more on people's perception of them than any historical evidence and is unlikely to satisfactorily resolve the issue.

As I see it, the main area where there is a glaring problem is fighting Heavily Armoured Cuirassiers, such as the Danes. If these survive the Impact without disrupting they are at ++ in Melee. If the same fix that has been applied in Fog AM (that a single level of better armour doesn't give a ++ POA) was introduced to Fog R, would that go far enough towards redressing this issue?

[Maniakes]

For me, reclassifying the Hussars as Elite is a measure that seems to be based more on people's perception of them than any historical evidence and is unlikely to satisfactorily resolve the issue.

As I see it, the main area where there is a glaring problem is fighting Heavily Armoured Cuirassiers, such as the Danes. If these survive the Impact without disrupting they are at ++ in Melee. If the same fix that has been applied in Fog AM (that a single level of better armour doesn't give a ++ POA) was introduced to Fog R, would that go far enough towards redressing this issue?

On your first point you are in agreement with Richard - their historical record isn't as good as wargamers think ( ..seduced by all those fluttering eagle feathers, perhaps!). In which case no change is needed. My gut reaction is that they are underpowered (...or overpriced) but I don't really know, we need someone with period knowledge to enter this discussion (Daniel, perhaps). For example did they ever meet and beat Heavily Armoured Cuirassiers? By the way do you think Hakepeliita deserve Elite status? Depends how elite you think Elite is, I suppose.

On the second point I think that for problems with one particular army you are bound to be safer changing the army list to solve the problem than the rules (which affect all armies) - the law of unintended consequences and all that.

[Three]

I wouldn't have the Hussars as Elite either; I'd think you would struggle to justify it historically and that would mean 27pts a base getting smashed rather than "just" 23. At 27pts a base that is 2 pts more than the Welsche Guard, who are up in impact, up in melee and get 2 dice a base as well.

I actually accept the descriptions of armour/weapon classes as they are explained in the notes for each list. I also think that in a post TYW theme they could do well, and at the very minimum they would be an attractive option up against mostly average and lots of unarmoured DH. It's the middle period where the points and effects seem to go wrong in my view.

I'd simply class them as Horse in the Early PLC list. At 15pts a base they are a decent buy, but still up against it. In impact they would be up v missile cavalry or pistols; even v Light Lance and down v Heavy Lance. In melee v pistols they still be mostly 2 down if the pistols didn't disrupt and even v most Eastern Cavalry, down against anything with HA or better.

[Three]

On your first point you are in agreement with Richard - their historical record isn't as good as wargamers think ( ..seduced by all those fluttering eagle feathers, perhaps!). In which case no change is needed. My gut reaction is that they are underpowered (...or overpriced) but I don't really know, we need someone with period knowledge to enter this discussion (Daniel, perhaps). For example did they ever meet and beat Heavily Armoured Cuirassiers? By the way do you think Hakepeliita deserve Elite status? Depends how elite you think Elite is, I suppose.

On the second point I think that for problems with one particular army you are bound to be safer changing the army list to solve the problem than the rules (which affect all armies) - the law of unintended consequences and all that.

There is a thread where Daniel is of the opinion that the Finns were just as good, or bad, as the rest of the Swedish Horse. My recollection is that someone says that the Finns were one of the few exceptions where the "wargamers perception" was allowed.

The Early PLC list allows Livonian Cuirassiers, so that kind of suggests that they came up against them at some point.

[MatteoPasi]

Dave

Like that option, especially given their reputation.

Yes but not too many units : no more than 1/3 of the units HIMO.

I'd like a small but interesting change of rules:
DH, Cavaliers and Gendarmes in second ranks in melee has to be able to combat like horses (so 1 dice each).

In a tipical melee between Ho and DH (with no more than a single overlap, never seen a melee with 2 overlap) this modify can give the second some advantage

[kevinj]

By the way do you think Hakepeliita deserve Elite status? Depends how elite you think Elite is, I suppose.

I think Elite status should be rare. I don't know enough about the Finns to state whether they deserve it, but it provides an option for some colour and flavour for a single BG. Like Three however, I don't think Elite status would improve the value of the Polish Hussars, certainly not sufficiently for the extra cost.

Also, I think that relatively, the points issue is marginal. Polish Hussars cost 2 points more than the Pistol/Pistol equivalent DH in return for an advantage at Impact. Reducing that differential to 1 point would not make a significant improvement to their value. I am also conscious of the fact that changes to Army Lists and Points Values have been very hard or impossible to achieve in the past, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Although we're specifically considering the Poles here, the same issues also apply to Swedish and French Impact mounted. Whilst the POA revision is a new consideration for Fog R, it was one of a number of options that were considered and tested to resolve similar issues in Fog AM and has emerged as the best solution that did not involve points changes (which were excluded from the V2 options).