Second Offensive Marginal Victory

[kverdon]

Once again I'm left scratching my head after seeming to meet all the listed victory conditions for a decisive victory in a scenario yet get a marginal. This time it's in Second Offensive.

Decisive Victory Conditions: Hold El Aghelia and all other objectives

I'm in possession of El Aghelia and all marked objective hexes. Could there be an objective that is not getting flagged?

I fought a holding action in the north, defeating the British advance there and then raced south and captured El Aghelia on the last turn. The promised reinforcements also never arrived.

????????????????

Kevin

[Razz1]

Victory conditions change during the course of the game.

Make sure to read the messages.

[kverdon]

Well they did not change for me

Kevin

[lordzimoa]

What do you see and read when you hit the message icon on the main UI or hit Ctrl+M.

[Naxor]

Yeah there is a bug. If you dont capture all southest objectives in early game you won't get that message. First time i played this i captured them 2 turns before the end and then i received the message. As you can imagine it was impossible to capture those last objectives in 2 turns. But if you capture them fast you get that message on turn 9.

[johndoe2]

Again I was lucky with this one as well DV the last turn.

But I wouldn't call it a bug because I didn't understand the original instructions. You need to capture El Aghelia as soon as possible leaving the rest for later. I didn't. I fought on all fronts capturing El Aghelia last (4 turns left). Luckily I was in good order and managed to capture the new objectives in time (Derna and Mechilli I think.)

Still should take some pride in managing DV with my original troops only and not relying on the reinforcements.

[robman]

Again I was lucky with this one as well DV the last turn.

But I wouldn't call it a bug because I didn't understand the original instructions. You need to capture El Aghelia as soon as possible leaving the rest for later. I didn't. I fought on all fronts capturing El Aghelia last (4 turns left). Luckily I was in good order and managed to capture the new objectives in time (Derna and Mechilli I think.)

Still should take some pride in managing DV with my original troops only and not relying on the reinforcements.

Just so you know: You get to keep some of the reinforcements in your core, including two SP guns with heroes (one of which is +5 attack).

[johndoe2]

Now my turn to be confused. The reinforcement I got didn't include those two SP guns. Is quick capture of El Aghelia necessary for those two?

PS

OK I replayed this one at turn 9 El Aghelia fell and at turn 10 two SP guns arrived so - yes quick capture of El Aghelia necessary for those two.

[uran21]

Briefing for this scenario explains it all. It is a fighting withdrawal scenario. El Agheila and some other objectives on the map at start are marked with neutral flag calling player for their capture. I assumed some players are not going to play on the way briefing calls them too so there were two options. Penalize those who stand and fight or award those who fought fighting withdrawal. Decision felt to award those who listen to the briefing. If player reaches El Algheila fast it will be awarded with bonus Italian units, when player captures El Agheila it will trigger new victory conditions.

[Aloo]

The problem with this scenario is that it should clearly state that you will not get support if you do well. Other wise its illogical to penalize players that try to stop the enemy waves. They already miss some prestige for not recapturing VH. I also took the hold at all cost approach on my first try and it cost me a lot so missing the support and free units was a reason for me to restart the scenario.

[Molve]

Let me add my voice to the "objectives are unclear" camp.

On my first attempt, I assigned several units rushing down to El Agheila (considering the fair warning about being cut off), and I was making good headway when my front around Msus (approx map center) crumbled - I was simply getting swamped by sheer numbers. So, on my next attempt, I concentrated my forces, and weathered the onslaught, first from the east, then from the south. However, even though I captured all objectives and cleaned out the map I still got only a marginal victory.

I had to examine the scenario file in the editor to understand what was going on.

You only get a decisive victory if you capture five secondary objectives. The scenario only starts with three.

In my opinion this tells me there has been set some very artificial restraints on how to best fight the scenario. You're not allowed to exercise your own best judgement. In any such scenario it is vital to be very clear on what those restraints are, so the player can make an informed decision.

Unfortunately this lesson was not learned when it comes to "Second Offensive".

The briefing is far from clear on the fact that you need to reach El Agheila and do it quickly in order to achieve a Decisive victory.

The fact that you might gain a few Italian bonus units isn't the issue here - not detailing the specifics of such a secondary benefit is quite okay in my book. Like any "pleasant surprise" bonus objectives or material is fine to not tell the player outright. In the same manner, the scenario editor tells me that by keeping a toehold in the area around Tengeder (called "Zone 18" in the editor) I will postpone the arrival of significant British units. Like before, it would sure be nice to be told of some benefits of gambling on letting your units stay (rather than withdraw to an orderly front line).

But that does not apply to the core of any given scenario, such as the difference between a marginal and decisive victory.

It is absolutely essential to tell the player everything needed to make an informed decision on what it takes to win a Decisive, or whether to settle for a Marginal only.

In this, I submit that "Second Offensive" fails.

The mission briefing absolutely must tell the player that he or she is expected to rush to El Agheila, not merely that El Agheila needs to be captured to win the scenario. Especially since this flies in the face of sound battle tactics - the scenario is naturally won much more easily if you concentrate, overcome, and only then reach out for the most distant objectives!

As an absolute minimum, don't tell the player "all objectives" is needed - tell him or her "5 secondaries are needed" for a Decisive, so that he or she at least doesn't think something's wrong with the win parameters. (Since only 3 can be found, this would clue an astute player in to the fact that there might be some kind of bonus assignment to be had, which could at the very least lead to some experimentation)

Just marking those objectives with the Neutral flag does in no way mean "capture me a.s.a.p". Neutral flags simply mean neither you nor the enemy controls them. If you want the player to understand that these flags carry a special significance, the game comes with special marker icons to use for this purpose. Either that, or a better briefing.

As the scenario stands, there is a real risk the player is left completely clueless as to why a seemingly crushing victory still grants a Marginal Victory only. And that's bad scenario design, pure and simple.

[captainjack]

El Aghelia is an interesting one. You can stand and fight, but if you don't secure El Aghelia early enough you miss out on the reinforcements. These appear to arrive on a specific turn rather than immediately you capture it (I think it's turn 9). If you are only a little bit late (a turn or two) you get only part of the reinforcements and (most important) miss out on the Italian bonus units.

This makes it quite challenging as you have to get to El Aghelia quickly and in enough strength to overwhelm the forces around there, while scouting to avoid ambushes. While doing this, you need to maintain sufficient screening forces to slow down the attacks at the top of the map without being surrounded and destroyed. All this with a reduced strength core. I reckon you deserve the bonus units in this one.

One thing I noticed was that if you place all your unit allowance at the outset, some end up in places where they are a bit exposed. If you don't like this, you can hold back a few units at deploytment. Then once you move the original forces away, you deploy the reserves on more favourable deployment hexes during turn 1.

[Molve]

The problem is that while you're told to retreat, you're not told why.

Since this is a game and each scenario is stand-alone, the best way to keep my units alive is to group them together in one place. Since I have only been told to take and hold El Aghelia, I see no military reason to rush it - by the intel available to me I can easily take it at the end of the scenario, when the back of the English has been broken already.

The only reason to be in a hurry to do as the message tells you is because it's the only way to get a chance at Decisive Victory, but the game never tells you this.

Obviously, if the message had stated how urgent and imperative it was to take and keep El Aghelia, perhaps hinting that losing it could break Italian morale or something, giving some clear clue El Aghelia is the key to a decisive victory, I would obviously have followed the message immediately instead of making up my own mind as I see best as commander.

Getting the units is unimpressive - I can easily win the Decisive conditions without any Italian help; what I do need is the information required to enable the Decisive win in the first place!

In a nutshell: since the message wants you to do something militarily stupid (in the context of the game scenario, where unlike real life supply is not a concern) it absolutely must tell you of the game advantages and disadvantages of doing so!

M

PS. All you need is a quick recon (Move 8 ) to zip past the approaching English. It can't hold El Aghelia by itself for all of nine turns, but it doesn't need to. It can easily fend off the AI's half-hearted attacks for two turns which is all you need, since then you can purchase a Grenadier or Panzer which the English AI doesn't even dare to attack.

[captainjack]

Molve,

You have reminded me that my use of recon could be improved.