Italian Navy needs a chance...

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:27 pm

I am currently in a Game with Irish Dragoon Guards, where I am getting my buttocks handed to me (beside the point). As soon as Italy entered the war, the entire Royal Navy and French fleets were Lined up right outside the Italian Ports and slaughtered them before I could even move. I would propose 2 solutions to this. 1. Allow Italians to be moved/deployed (USSR too for that matter) prior to going to war. 2. Ports should be havens from surface attacks, only vulnerable to air and subs (but the subs would have a high risk of being sunk by port defenses). It was very frustrating to have almost the entire Italian Fleet at the bottom before I could even move them.

I know a new patch just came out, but I hope the development team will look into this.

vypuero · Post by **vypuero** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:48 pm

The answer to this is to invade England

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:52 pm

Prior to Italy joining the war??? I guess I am not that quick at conquering France, or do you mean before France falls?

IrishDragoonGuards · Post by **IrishDragoonGuards** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:34 pm

Vp thats about the lamest comment I ever heard ..

Most of the fleet is in the Med ... I still hold the seas .. France is still around .. July 1940 ...
It only takes 2 turns to crush the Italian navy ...
1 turn after the Italians are no more the CV .. DD .. 2 BB move back to North Sea ... Only takes 4-5 turns ...

I still have a CV and 2 BB hammering any coastal units in Belguim ..
All it takes is a sub north of the Hague port and ...

... guess what no Inavasion ...
Lots of UK corps in UK .. I just dont get what the big prob is with Italy joining at the start of the Axis turn ..
Other minors same .... I guess you just don't get it ...

IDG

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:46 pm

IDG, are you proofing your strategy is too strong or that your opponent was too weak to beat you?
In July 1940, France is supposed to be conquered especially if the Navy was down in the Medieterranean instead of near the French coast providing naval support for any Axis outflank attempts along the coast.

IrishDragoonGuards · Post by **IrishDragoonGuards** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:55 pm

I really dont think it actually matters much FPJ ... Cause Italy never gets a chance to move ..
In my mind its not even a strategy .. Its gamey .. Very gamey ....
If you guys think this is np ... then I guess there will be no naval war in many games ... I have played my share ... And in games where Russia falls ..
Germany starts CV production ....

What works with an AI has absolutely no bearing on Human play .. none ...

If you guys have np with the way its working ... Well what can I say ...
IDG

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:40 pm

France being conquered is not the issue here. IDG is a very skilled oponent and put up a great defense of France. If a German player decides to do the traditional route with a Norwiegan campaign, etc., it is highly likely that Italy enters the war prior to France falling. Last time I checked my history books, France had not surrendered when Italy joined the war. My main point is that Italy should not be paraylzed allowing the Royal Navy to sit outside its ports and sink its fleet. The majors should be able to move when not at war, or go first when they enter. I don't understand the concept that Italy's grand enterance into the war is acting like someone declared war on them and they were suprised. This would apply for the USSR as well, if the Axis does not attack them first.

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:54 pm

If Axis invade Norway or not should not affect Italian entry, the entrys are random variated from a fixed date and no diplomatic triggers are inserted to the game.

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:03 pm

I understand that Johan. My point about Norway was that France could very easily still be in the game when Italy joins the war. I am talking about the allies ambushing the Italian Fleet. They need to go first or be able to move while not at war.

Thanks.....

vypuero · Post by **vypuero** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:41 pm

1 - We may want to make Egypt a Nation that "Joins" the Allies around the same time as Italy does. That will freeze up the units there
2 - We may also want to make Belgium pro-allies, so no allied dow can take place
3 - Ports do provide a bonus protection, but this could be increased

Thoughts?

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:42 pm

I've modded CeaW with Happycat and we have made several refinements of this mod. We also play with house rules. One of these house rules is that BB's and DD's can't attack enemy naval units in port unless the unit in port attacked out of the port the same turn. The house rule also says that only one sub attack per port per turn is allowed. The ship in port is allowed to retaliate against this sub without lifting the protection against BB's and DD's attacking the ports. So only CV's and air units can freely attack the ports.

With this house rule Italy won't lose his navy in 1940 unless he leaves the ports. The French navy can't launch any suicide attacks against the Italian navy with this house rule. So Italy needs to be passive at least until France surrenders. After this time he can decide to use his naval units against the British player unless his sub notices lots of extra British naval units.

This house rule also makes it easier to transport land units to North Africa because Italy can sail from port to port and no BB's or DD's can bombard it. The only way to stop such a movement is to blockade the ports, but Britain doesn't have enough units to stop this.

I agree that it's very gamey that you can gang up upon naval units hiding in port and kill them one by one. So maybe the house rule I just described could become part of the official game. That would give Italy a fair chance.

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:24 am

I think any adjustment would help, but my main proposal would still be that major powers could move, not fight, prior to going to war. Just my $.02...

vypuero · Post by **vypuero** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:55 am

there are other problems with that.

My proposal instead is to increase the strength of ports - pretty easy to do.

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:17 am

That would help....Thanks for looking into it.

ancient · Post by **ancient** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:50 am

Can anyone tell me a reason why countries shouldn't join the war at the beginning of their own side's turn?

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:19 am

ancient wrote:Can anyone tell me a reason why countries shouldn't join the war at the beginning of their own side's turn?

Because luck factor is then too much. Imagine if USSR join before you had a chance to DoW and that they then can move back all units from their front line gaining hundreds of PP in reduced losses they would have taken if Axis moved first.

Especially since we now have varied war entries, you can never know if USSR join in april-august. We use same rules for all other countries as well for consistency.

vypuero · Post by **vypuero** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:02 pm

I am going to disagree - if the entry for Russia is October, and you as Axis have not attacked them, even with some randomness, it is 100% reasonable to lose your surprise advantage!

I suggest changing it so that the entry occurs on that nations turn. This is also consistent with a DoW on an enemy, where the attacker, not the defender, goes first. Entry into war means you are the attacker.

Think about it. This is the right change to make.

gmothes · Post by **gmothes** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:33 am

I strongly agree with VP.... Declaring war should lend that country the initiative...

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:56 am

vypuero wrote:I am going to disagree - if the entry for Russia is October, and you as Axis have not attacked them, even with some randomness, it is 100% reasonable to lose your surprise advantage!

I suggest changing it so that the entry occurs on that nations turn. This is also consistent with a DoW on an enemy, where the attacker, not the defender, goes first. Entry into war means you are the attacker.

Think about it. This is the right change to make.

If I understand you correctly, this would also help a bit with the business of the USA not entering the War until February 42, which I have protested vehemently and at length in another thread.