800 or 1000

[hazelbark]

But why not try 650 points ...

Our next try mill be "strange" : quatre-bras on a 3 X 3 table ( from Napoleon's battle ) to test how to go fromNap Battles scen to FOGN scen . We know the scale is not the same but it might be interesting to try and quatre bras is small enough .

Sound interesting let us know how it goes. We mod'd the ancients rules and did 400 points on a 1/2 size table with standard everything else except min and max of all troops were 1/2 rounded up. It worked far better than I imagined (it was someone else's idea) and I commend it. We got those games done in like 2 or 2.5 hours with terrain set up included.

[CutEmUp]

So you're just gonna tell people who want to play in a tournament "sorry bro, you either do this or you can't come"

Well since I have run plenty of matched sides tournaments...yes. The way it is done is invisible to people. You ask the people you know to bring a pair of army and switch to fill in even numbers. Its really not hard done all the time. I suppose it is possible to have a problem, but haven't seen it yet in a decade.

But the reality is, you plan a solution and it is likely never to be a problem. I can think of dozens of clubs that when some one is thinking of a new army they are encouraged to fill a need. Yes that is a challenge to a first time player, but there are going to be a lot of people around with options.

So your solution is keep it among friends, and if any outsiders want in then you get to tell them which army they are allowed to have and they have to build it outside the specifications laid out in the rule book? Not exactly an evangelical wargamer are you?

[CutEmUp]

Everything you just said is exactly why 650-800 is perfect, especially 650. 850 is too much. There is a reason the people who wrote the rules said 650-800 for tournaments. So what if you can't have the exact list you want. Make do.

they picked the number out of you know where. They used the same point range for ancients and renaissanec it defies the odds that they got it right. Then add int he authors of the others that have essentially admited they got that wrong.

I am not saying 650 is bad or 700 or 650 on a different size or 800. I am saying viva la difference and none are bad. They had different strengths and weaknesses. Enjoy them all.

Another idea that I think would well for these rules is pre-set terrain. It would speed up games and allow you to get the kind of games in per hour that you describe. Not saying all the time, just saying it would be a nice option.

I'm saying anything over 800 would be bad for tournament play. I don't know how many tournaments of various Wargames you've been in, I'm not even pretending to guess, but I've done quite a few and if you go over 800 points nothing will get settled. Tournaments are supposed to be fun, but the number one reason for a tournament is competition; to find out who the best general is. Otherwise we could just set up a bunch of pick up games and that would be that.

Even if 20 players showed up and had the means to field 1000 points, how is four games going to determine that? You crown your tournament champion with him only playing 1/5 of the field and to a lot of people that ain't fair. And that's even without considering people taking all the cheesy stuff because they have the points to do it.

[CutEmUp]

If you want all them points amongst your buddies, that's great and I'm sure it's plenty of fun.

[CutEmUp]

Just to see if the "I can't field an army at 650" made sense or was reasonable, I busted out a bunch of 1809 lists

Austria - 2 infantry Divisions and a mixed advanced guard division totaling:
4x Large average drilled infantry units
2x Large superior drilled infantry units
2x Grenzers
2x Lights cavalry
2x Foot artillery batteries
4x competent generals
2x skirmish attachments
Perfectly reasonable amount of troops

France - 2 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions totaling:
2x Small average drilled infantry units
1x Large average drilled infantry unit
1x Small veteran drilled infantry unit
1x Small average conscript infantry unit
1x Large average conscript infantry unit
1x Small average drilled light infantry unit
2x Small light cavalry units
2x Foot artillery batteries
1x Skilled commander
3x Competent commanders
3x Skirmish attachments
1x officer attachment
2x artillery attachments
Again, perfectly reasonable amount of stuff to work with

Saxons - 2 infantry divisions and a cavalry division totaling:
4x Small average drilled infantry regiments
1x Small average veteran infantry unit
1x Small Saxon grenadier guard unit
1x Large Garde du Corps unit
1x small light cavalry unit
1x foot artillery
4x competent commanders
3x cavalry attachments
2x artillery attachments
3x officer attachments
2x skirmish attachments

Wurttemberg - 2 infantry and 1 mixed advance guard divisions totaling:
5x Small average drilled infantry units
2x Small average vet light infantry unit
1x Small Jagers
1x Small light cavalry
1x Foot artillery
1x Horse artillery
4x competent commanders
1x cavalry attachment

Bavaria - 2 inf and 1 AG divisions totaling
3x small average drilled inf
3x small average conscript inf
2x small foot artillery
2x small average vet light inf
1x small average drilled light cav
1x horse artillery
1x skilled commander
3x competent commanders
1x artillery attachment

[CutEmUp]

Each of those armies is 650 on the nose, but each had plenty of leeway to customize. Do we have divisions of massed cuirassiers bowling over everything in their path? Not unless you take a cavalry corps, but we have nice little corps commands, suitable for fast paced, enjoyable tournament games that don't take a week to set up and clean up, just to do it all over again at the next table and games that are within an acceptable time frame

[hazelbark]

So your solution is keep it among friends, and if any outsiders want in then you get to tell them which army they are allowed to have and they have to build it outside the specifications laid out in the rule book? Not exactly an evangelical wargamer are you?

I taught 19 people at a convention two weeks ago. I have plans to do a few more demos in more than one state. I think I have my evangelical credentials.

But you are clearly looking for a fight and an argument and can read what is written. So this is point less.

[hazelbark]

I don't know how many tournaments of various Wargames you've been in, I'm not even pretending to guess, but I've done quite a few and if you go over 800 points nothing will get settled. Tournaments are supposed to be fun, but the number one reason for a tournament is competition; to find out who the best general is. Otherwise we could just set up a bunch of pick up games and that would be that.

You have no idea.

[CutEmUp]

So your solution is keep it among friends, and if any outsiders want in then you get to tell them which army they are allowed to have and they have to build it outside the specifications laid out in the rule book? Not exactly an evangelical wargamer are you?

I taught 19 people at a convention two weeks ago. I have plans to do a few more demos in more than one state. I think I have my evangelical credentials.

But you are clearly looking for a fight and an argument and can read what is written. So this is point less.

I'm not clearly looking for a fight. I'm just stating the obvious.

[CutEmUp]

I don't know how many tournaments of various Wargames you've been in, I'm not even pretending to guess, but I've done quite a few and if you go over 800 points nothing will get settled. Tournaments are supposed to be fun, but the number one reason for a tournament is competition; to find out who the best general is. Otherwise we could just set up a bunch of pick up games and that would be that.

You have no idea.

Isn't that what I said?

[CutEmUp]

And you went off attacking weird things rather than making any sort of counter argument

[Blathergut]

Could the discussions remain about the game, please? Thank you! Perhaps take the personal comments and such to messages?

[CutEmUp]

Could the discussions remain about the game, please? Thank you! Perhaps take the personal comments and such to messages?

Ok - I don't like the pre-set terrain idea, why let everybody know what the battlefield is. Armies would all be tailor made to suit it

[viperofmilan]

If it and artillery it'll be something else and what you will see is lots of French v French

Not in any tournament i'm in. That is total fantasy BS and you can put ORcs on the table then.

Once again, amen brother Dan I agree whole-heartedly.

Kevin

[Ambiorix]

Could the discussions remain about the game, please? Thank you! Perhaps take the personal comments and such to messages?

Ok - I don't like the pre-set terrain idea, why let everybody know what the battlefield is. Armies would all be tailor made to suit it

Unless you set the terrain AFTER the army lists were submitted;

btw,I like your proposed 650 points army lists (keep them coming ), they look indeed 'balanced' and not that small at all;
However, not sure about options remaining, as many have quite a mandatory number of units.

[CutEmUp]

On your first point - I have no problem with tourney organizers setting up tables pre tourney and making the competitors play on those preset tables. However. If you have a list of terrain placards that you choose from for every tournament, it just becomes Napoleon total war where we fight the same 10 battles over and over.

As for the armies, yeah, they do have a lot of mandatory stuff, but if you consider command ratings etc. then there is basically just barely enough wiggle room to sneak in one or two extra things. This ensures that the makeup of armies from nation to nation is a little different. Too much points ensures everybody has enough to get those 'must have' units in and armies all start looking the same.

[bahdahbum]

800 points seems fine for a tournament . With 650 points you miss a lot such as allied divisions which can be real fun .

[deadtorius]

I can see your point about 650 allowing a game to complete in a shorter time span. For tournaments it would be necessary. Playing on preset battle fields would also help to speed things up. Personally I would set up the tables then randomly assign them to the players, designating one of them as defender or letting them roll so see who counts as defender, then let that player pick his table edge, after all we must assume the defender was there first and was waiting.

If you want to see who is the better general why let them make their own terrain choices? Here is your battle field lets see how you handle it. Eliminate tables as the tournament progresses perhaps.
Just some random thoughts....

[CutEmUp]

I can see your point about 650 allowing a game to complete in a shorter time span. For tournaments it would be necessary. Playing on preset battle fields would also help to speed things up. Personally I would set up the tables then randomly assign them to the players, designating one of them as defender or letting them roll so see who counts as defender, then let that player pick his table edge, after all we must assume the defender was there first and was waiting.

If you want to see who is the better general why let them make their own terrain choices? Here is your battle field lets see how you handle it. Eliminate tables as the tournament progresses perhaps.
Just some random thoughts....

I think you make some grea points.
To the guy 2 posts up. 800 points is just fine too, if you have 8-10 players, you can pool them up, have them each play three
Games in the pool and then a playoff bracket.
I still think 650 because the more games you can get it, the more fun you'll have and the field would be far more interesting

[Andy1972]

Having played in FOG:A tourneys at 900.points and FOG:R at 800 points, 3.5 hrs works fine up get a battle settled.. For FOG:N.. 1000 points is too much and 650 is too small. I like 850-900 points.. Though the 650 would be good for a beginners tourney. 2 hour rounds maybe.