Drilled Avars?

[batesmotel]

Does anyone know why the Avar cavalry are classed as drilled in Decline and Fall. Nearly all other steppe cavalry are classed as undrilled. (Mongols are the only exception I can think of.) So what was so special about the Avars?

Chris

[ravenflight]

Does anyone know why the Avar cavalry are classed as drilled in Decline and Fall. Nearly all other steppe cavalry are classed as undrilled. (Mongols are the only exception I can think of.) So what was so special about the Avars?

Chris

I may be wrong, but from what I understand what was special about them is that they actually had regiments, as per a standing army. They are probably given the benefit of the doubt given that they seem to have been slightly more structured than most other 'tribal' armies.

Additionally, it's not a HUGE advantage having drilled over undrilled cavalry. In the sense that drilled foot are a lot less manouverable, whereas cavalry is not the same (per v1).

[batesmotel]

Being drilled actually is a significant advantage for bow, sword cavalry. It allows them to expand and move as a CMT or to expand while stationary as a simple move. This is a big plus for cavalry that wants to be able to switch between a single rank to skirmish and two ranks to maneuver or for combat.

Chris

[ravenflight]

Being drilled actually is a significant advantage for bow, sword cavalry. It allows them to expand and move as a CMT or to expand while stationary as a simple move. This is a big plus for cavalry that wants to be able to switch between a single rank to skirmish and two ranks to maneuver or for combat.

Chris

Yes, I'm aware of that, but it's not as big a difference as it is between Drilled and Undrilled infantry.

The ability to move short without a commander.
The ability to turn and move.
The ability to wheel without a commander.

All of these are available to the undrilled cavalry and the drilled cavalry equally. Not so with the Undrilled infantry (v1).

So if it appeared that Avar cavalry were more regimented than other hairy barbarian cavalry it's not as big a deal to give them drilled as it would be to say 'Well, the Gauls were KINDA drilled... lets give them drilled".

[grahambriggs]

It is not as big a difference but it is much cheaper to upgrade the cavalry. Not in terms of points per base but in terms of the army. To upgrade a Cav/LH army from undrilled to drilled will typically cost 20-24 points. With, say, protected foot type armies there are far more bases for making them drilled would be at least 50 points.

[batesmotel]

Just to be clear about my original question, I wasn't complaining about the Avars being drilled, just wondering what was different about them to justify it. For the Mongols there does seem to be substantial documentation that they were better trained, organized and disciplined than earlier or later steppe armies but I don't recall seeing anything similar about the Avars. I think it is a definite plus for them in game terms but not a game breaker. In tournament terms I like the Khazars better since they get drilled Arsiyah (which make sense as being essentially ex-Arab Ghilman) and have the option of more lancers. I just don't recall seeing anything that specifically differentiates Avar organization and drill from other Steppe armies like the Magyars or the Khazars and other Western Turks.

Chris

[ShrubMiK]

DBx army lists mention something about this IIRC.