Rivers and streams

[bahdahbum]

Can a CAV unit charge trough a stream or a river ( ( waist high in our case ) ?

And what about 2 CAV units facing each other, the streams runs in the middle . More on the defender's side . The attackerdeclares a charge ...the defender should countercharge in the river/stream ....

Now what is the effect of a river/stream if a unit is in the middle of it and , unfortunatly for it is being assaulted while trying to cross ...

What kind of terrain is a river/stream for movement ! In other words, except for a CMT to cross, how does it influence movement ...

[panda2]

What kind of terrain is a river/stream for movement ! In other words, except for a CMT to cross, how does it influence movement ...

Crossing a river or stream is treated as crossing an obstacle (p.79). To cross an undefended obstacle you need to be in contact with it at the begining of your move and then take a CMT. If you pass the CMT your unit moves directly forward the minimum distance for your rear edge to be in contact with the obstacle (p.80).

If there is an enemy unit preventing you doing this (but which isn't defending the obstacle), you will need to declare an assault on it (taking a CMT). The enemy in this case will not count as defending an obstacle, but you will suffer any loss of cohesion for the depth of the water.

If the obstacle is defended at the point you wish to cross you will need to declare an assault on the defending unit. You do not need to be in contact with the obstacle to do this, you only need to be in a position to reach the obstacle with a normal move. The enemy will get the bonus of defending the obstacle and you will suffer any cohesion loss from the depth of the water.

Can a CAV unit charge trough a stream or a river ( ( waist high in our case ) ?

Cavalry cannot assault a defended river unless it is ankle deep or has dried up (p.79). However, if it is in a position to cross the river with a normal move after taking a CMT (i.e. in conatct with the river), but there is an enemy preventing it from doing this that doesn't count as defending the obstacle then it could assault them after taking a CMT as described above.

And what about 2 CAV units facing each other, the streams runs in the middle . More on the defender's side . The attackerdeclares a charge ...the defender should countercharge in the river/stream ....

Cavalry cannot defend a river or stream. So this could only occur in a situation where the "attacker" was already in contact with the obstacle and where the "defender" was in a position where it prevented the "attacker" completing a normal move to cross the obstacle. It would therefore be handled as described above, the "attacker" could declare an assault on the "defender", but would need to take a CMT. For the countercharge, I would move the "defender" half way to the obstacle and then move the "attacker" into contact.

Now what is the effect of a river/stream if a unit is in the middle of it and , unfortunatly for it is being assaulted while trying to cross ...

I'm not really sure you can ever really be in the middle of an obstacle. You are either in a position to cross it, have crossed it or are assaulting accross it. In the latter case once the combat is compleated the assaulting unit will cross the obstacle or retire. The only exception would be if the combat continued into a second round because neither side retired. I suppose it could be possible for the original attacker to be attacked by a third unit in this circumstance, but for this to occur the new unit would already have to be in contact with the obstacle and the original attacker would need to be in a position that prevent the new attacker moving accross the river. I the unlikely event this does ever occur in a game I'm playing in then I would suggest that the new unit suffers the normal cohesion drop for attacking across the river, the original defender is treated as defending an obstacle (if in deed it was) and the original attacker still suffers the cohesion drop for attacking accross the river.

Andy D

[bahdahbum]

Andy ...the question is difficult ;.. ...

...and how does that river/stream afects the unit which is in that terrain ....INF or CAV we need a ruling here is it difficult, rough

[bahdahbum]

Cavalry cannot assault a defended river unless it is ankle deep or has dried up (p.79).

Ok if not defended ...what ?

[Blathergut]

I don't think you can be in a stream/river, just as you can't be in a wall. You are on one side or the other.

[panda2]

Cavalry cannot assault a defended river unless it is ankle deep or has dried up (p.79).

Ok if not defended ...what ?

So this could only occur in a situation where the "attacker" was already in contact with the obstacle and where the "defender" was in a position where it prevented the "attacker" completing a normal move to cross the obstacle. It would therefore be handled as described above, the "attacker" could declare an assault on the "defender", but would need to take a CMT. For the countercharge, I would move the "defender" half way to the obstacle and then move the "attacker" into contact.

I think you may have missed this bit.

Andy D

[terrys]

Can a CAV unit charge trough a stream or a river ( ( waist high in our case ) ?

A cavalry unit cannot assault through a waiste high river. To cross a river the cavalry must move to contact it, then take another move to cross (with a CMT if required). If there is an enemy unit stopping it crossing, the cavalry can assault it as long as the river is no more than ankle deep.

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And what about 2 CAV units facing each other, the streams runs in the middle . More on the defender's side . The attackerdeclares a charge ...the defender should countercharge in the river/stream ....

Correct. In this case both units would suffer cohesion losses. Cavalry cannot defend rivers (or any other obstacle).

Now what is the effect of a river/stream if a unit is in the middle of it and , unfortunatly for it is being assaulted while trying to cross ...

A unit can never end a normal move in the middle of a river. It will be either one side or the other, or assaulting a defending enemy (or possible 2 cavalry units in the middle as above).

What kind of terrain is a river/stream for movement ! In other words, except for a CMT to cross, how does it influence movement ...

That's all there is - a CMT to cross. It starts on one side and ends on the other.


We tried to remove the problem of rivers and where exactly units are in relation to it. The only time a unit will be in the middle of a river will be during an assault. (although there is a very rare situation where a unit may end a combat still in contact while still in the river).

[bahdahbum]

Correct. In this case both units would suffer cohesion losses

And why would they suffer cohesion loss as the river has no effect ?

[bahdahbum]

That's all there is - a CMT to cross. It starts on one side and ends on the other.

Should I understand that there is in fact a kind of effect : whatever the movement you can do ( 10 MU, 6 MU ) if you have to test, you just cross the river and go no further away .

[deadtorius]

I believe if I have it right, you pass the CMT, move to the other side and end with your units rear touching the river. Kind of a nice way of simulating the extra time an amphibious crossing could take in this era I thought. Cross a river you might get over, but your still going to have to wait on the other side before you can rampage away.

[terrys]

Correct. In this case both units would suffer cohesion losses

And why would they suffer cohesion loss as the river has no effect ?

You are of course correct. Since cavalry cannot asault across a waist or shoulder high river they could not be fighting in it.
There is however one possibility where this may occur - cavalry can assault across a dried up river - enemy cavalry will counter-charge, and they could meet in the middle. In this case they would both fight as if in rough terrain.

[gibby]

Can I add a question its sort of to do with rivers and stream.

I had a unit of Hussars in March column on a road and partially on a bridge over a river.

Enemy jagers in skirmish order are 8 inches away.

Can I charge them?

We had doubts and played you could not as March column cannot assault...... However it says unless assaulting over a bridge. So the debate centred around
1) I was already partially on the bridge
2) The enemy was 8 inches from the bridge
3) I would come off the road to do the charge

So when assaulting in March column over a bridge does the enemy have to be at the bridge exit or do you qualify for assaulting over a bridge as long as part of your movement takes you over the bridge.

Hope you get the gist.

cheers
Jim

[terrys]

The restriction on charging in column is specifically for situations where you can't contact the enemy in any other way. So for example cavalry attacking enemy occupying a village can only enter if in column. Similarly cavalry attacking renemy defending a bridge can only contact them if charging in column.

In the situation that you quote, the presence of the bridge doesn't really have any bearing. The infantry still couldn't be assaulted if the bridge didn't exist. It would be really strange if the cavalry gained an advantage because it was on a bridge.
You therefore cannot assault the infantry frwithout forming tactical or line first.