Axis Strategy & Tactics at higher difficulty levels

[neilhammond]

Hi,

I'm finding the Axis much harder to play at medium/high level advantage to the AI (compared to playing the Allies with the same level of advantage to the Axis AI). I was interested in other people's strategies and tactics. FirePowerJohn has said that it's relatively easy at the medium level, but I haven't (yet) worked out the strategy for winning with Axis at that level.

I play with fog of war and oil switched on.

I can normally overrun Moscow in '42 but the whole thing runs out of steam and Perm is just too far. By '43 the allies are too strong and at much high levels of capability to really make a fist of defending until '45.

[vypuero]

Yeah it is much harder now after the new patch, I agree - that was the old one. In this Axis vs. moderate allied advantage is a challenge.

[Talen]

All simulations of historical wars fight the eternal battle between playability vs. accuracy. But, realistically, if Germany does not win the War in 1942 her goose is cooked, and should be. Consider, Germany could not defeat Russia by itself; after the entry of America there was simply no chance, the disparity in industrial output was too great. The German player in CEAW should aim for doing better than Hitler did and lasting longer, not at total victory.

Of course, some challenge this view and argue that Germany could have won the War if Hitler had made different decisions at different times. For instance, that Russia could have been beaten if a different strategy had been used. Maybe. Don't think so but I may be wrong, I have been before.

Something usually forgotten in the argument over particular strategy and tactics is that dictatorships are inherently inefficient; Hitler's was particuarly so. The initial rapid successes over a weak Poland and a dithering, senile France puffed up the look of Germany's power to greater than it was. The Wermacht was indeed a 'marvelous machine', but it was a flawed one. Am just rereading Clark's Barbarossa after some decades and he is excellent at pointing out how Hitler's political tactic of divide and conquer, letting different subordinates set up their own competing sub-empires within Nazi Germany came back to bite him hard on the ass when the war started, as in 1941 especially in Russia individual Generals disobeyed him often and strove to subvert his strategic viewpoint.

And, as H.P. Willmott, the most underated and probably the best commentator of the strategic side of WWII so aptly said, the German's know how to win battles but not wars; they are superb tacticians but lousy strategists.

I know this is not helpful advice on how to win with the Germans but my point is that the Germans probably should not be able to win a total victory and victory or defeat should be based on a point system of how well the player does vs. how well, or poorly, Hitler and his generals did. After all, you have taken Moscow, which was more than the German General Staff managed. Why be dissapointed?

[neilhammond]

Thanks for you comments Talen. I don't have a problem with the Axis not winning at the moderate+ level. I'm with you on the eventual outcome, for reasons that are not relevent to this thread, but again I agree that industrial capacity was key.

Within context of the game, I find it hard for the Axis to accumulate enough VPs to win by the '45 cut off (i.e. they can't hang onto enough capitals). Soooo, is it a game of grab ground in '42/43 and then defend well from them on; and ramp up research so you can maintain combat parity?

[Talen]

Let me not be confusing about it; I don't have the game yet (hope to have the money next month). I was making general comments that could apply to any strategic WWII game. But I have read extensively on this and the Matrix forums on the game and seen other posts like yours.

I would think your last sentence sums it up well though; that is as concise a formulation of a good German strategy as I can think of, in the game or in WWII. After all technology makes a huge difference. When the war ended the Germans were just getting their jet fighters and new generation of U-boats barely into commission. Had the war on as long as it took us to defeat Japan they would have had these in operation. They probably would not have changed the end but they would have visited enormously more casualties on the allies than were suffered (leaving aside the question as to whether the first a-bomb would have been on Germany then).

Even without the game I think there are comments that can be made about any strategic level game of WWII, whether it be the old Avalon Hill boardgame Stalingrad or CEAW. For the Germans grabbing space is good; both for the resources and because it puts distance between you and the Fatherland. But there is an optimum limit. Clauswitz taught that there is a point in any successful offense when the law of dimenishing returns sets in; the supply lines have stretched out thin, men and machines are worn out and you have less of both than when you started to cover a larger area. The temptation is to press on, for it is difficult to summon the psychological strength to say 'enough' when you are on a seeming roll. But Clauswitz says you had better and the best generals know when to stop. In addition, in any invasion of Russia from Europe the invader, like the Hitler's Germans, faces a disadvantage of geo-politics; Russia opens up like a funnel from Europe and, the further an invader goes to the east, the wider the front becomes. Thus, as you lose troops, you will have a larger front to cover. For the Russians, with their enormous reserves of peoplepower, this is much less of a problem.

Well, I am rambling, but again I say that your last sentence is it in a nutshell, with the caveat that perhaps a line in Russia somewhere BEFORE Moscow is a better place to stop, dig in, reinforce. Also, with a shorter line to defend your mobile reserves can be better disposed and moved to stop Russian breakthroughs. Unless you take the whole damned thing in the first 1941 campaign beware of going too deep and lingering too long in Russia. After all, Napoleon did take Moscow and what did it gain him? A few month later about 20,000 of his formerly 500,000 strong Grand Army staggered back into Poland. It is always easier to defend than to attack, IF you have decent numbers of reserves. If these are expended in pushing deep into the east then when the Russian counterattacks come it will be most difficult, if not impossible, to hold them.

[neilhammond]

Hi,

I've played part of a game (1940 start, vs AI, me Axis, moderate level of difficulty). I played with fog of war turned off for a change so I could see what is happending.

At the end of 1942, after invading Russia in Aug '41, I note the following resource stats:

Russia is at 160% production capacity and is generating over 200 points/turn (this EXCLUDES convoys that get through (starting at b/t 100-200 in this date but whittled down to half). It has 4 railways.

US is generating about 50 points/turn, 4 railways and is at 110% capacity

UK is generating about 40/turn plus convoy of about 30-50 points each. Similarly, 4 railways.

I didn't check the UK/US levels, but Russian armour is at lvl 13, mech inf at lvl 8, inf at lvl 6.

Germany is generating about 108 pts/turn and Italy 30; and has 2 railways. I've got german armour at lvl 12 and inf at lvl 8. But you don't seem to be able to generate enough to keep the momentum up.

At these resource levels, Russia can generate about 4 inf units / turn plus has about 60 pts left over for repairs & upgrades, plus it gets bonus for convoys every so often. While the AI isn't smarter in strategic terms, it's still pretty difficult against this level of resource.

Anyone know what the Hard level generates?

I still maintain that, whilst the allies should generate more and overtake the axis, to do so at the end of '42 seems too soon.

Neil

[vypuero]

I win now on Moderate for both sides pretty handily - also won as Allies vs hard Axis - have to try Axis at hard now. Hard is very tough, moderate is a good challenge - most fun is playing person - did that last weekend had awesomely cool games

[neilhammond]

I win now on Moderate for both sides pretty handily - also won as Allies vs hard Axis - have to try Axis at hard now. Hard is very tough, moderate is a good challenge

Okay, cool. What's your approach for playing the Axis? Is the key the type of units you build? Micro-tactics? Research & type? Big navy? No navy? Ignore minor nations? What dates do you try and launch the invasions?

[vypuero]

Its hard to detail at length - I usually do fairly broad tech research and max labs out - a few early ones, then max out by barbarossa. I usually do:
2-3 in Infantry, aty focus
3 in armor - usually balanced, then switch to armor focus
3 in air, dogfight focus
2 in navy - sub focus
2 in general, industry focus

Italy mostly Org focus and Infantry focus, usually 2-3 labs in each, maybe late in game might throw in a lab elsewhere

German Units before Fr = Tac (for AI, Ftr vs human), leader (usually I pick Runstedt) and a tank and maybe an infantry or two reg or motor.

Generally take Poland-Denmark-Norway, then Neth-Belg, then France. Italy takes ME with maybe the armor, an inf and tac added,
Then I build up, have some air protecting france, garrisons, leave a corps in paris, with a leader unit to float around helping my air units.
Italy takes greece by naval invasion - 3 units, naval bombardment, tac bomber in albania supporting

sometimes like a level bomber to tear up london

then Yugo after I have Rum/Hung - Rum is good bec/u can place units to attack capital fast - dont forget air support

then its go for russkies

[neilhammond]

Great, thanks vypuero.

I've been maxim Ge labs, but all balanced, not focused. I'll try changing that.

Unit builds have been broadly similiar, although I've been going for a figher vs the AI. Will try a TAC instead. And sounds like I need a strat bomber to keep London honest.

Country sequence is roughly similar, but I haven't been going for Youg. I've already conculuded that it's worth it once Rum/Hung come on board, as you describe.

I handn't spotted that leader units will help air units - defintely worthwhile remembering. I've been using air + a few units to protect against '42 D-Day. Sounds like I should continue that.

I've been using a mixed Ge/It combo for the Med, I'll follow your tactics instead, then go for Greece.

With Russia, do you (broadly) go for a single drive towards moscow/perm or do you have two arms - one for moscow, one for the southern oilfields?

[vypuero]

I cant say I always know the best way - but now I think the central drive is most likely best, because of the fact the AI does not defend the ME well you can get enough oil there.

[neilhammond]

... because of the fact the AI does not defend the ME well you can get enough oil there.

True, I've usually sourced my oil from the ME.

[neilhammond]

When to attack Russia?

At the higher difficulty levels, when is a better time to attack Russia? April/May '41 means that the Russians don't have so many units, but OTOH the Axis usually hasn't quite got up to full potential. Aug '41 feels better, but the Russians bring in quite a few units by then.

[marand]

I just finished a game as Axis. Moderate level, fog of war and oil consumption, starting 1939. It was fairly easy and I won at Feb 1945. (When I finally conquered Washington).

Research on Organization and Armor. About 3-4 each and when you have maxed organization then switch to Industry. Ignore the navy completely. Just do as much damage you can with your 2 subs then dont worry about it. Try to always have the maximum allowed number of research lab. With Italy focus on Organization and infantry.

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Early game:
Attack Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland etc... through France.

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Middle game:
Buy 2 fighters and start research on Air (Dog fight). Buy a commander to put in France and another commander for the eastern front. Let Germany capture Bulgaria while Italy uses all his forces including a German airplane to capture Greece and the Middle East. (To get the oil).

After Bulgaria and Greece have been captured move all units to the Russian front, then upgrade all units and wait for them to have full organization. I attacked Russia about the time when Finland joins the axis. Try to move east as fast as possible. Just rush through in the middle aiming for Moscow and Perm. Don't waste units going for stuff like Tallin and the southern oil fields. If possible encircle large parts of the Russian army, but dont bother killing them with your eastern spearhead. Just let them sit there with no Organization and kill them off with your reinforcements.

I took Moscow at the end of 1941 and Perm at the end of 1942. By the time I was running low on oil Italy had conquered the oil fields in the ME. Oil was still definately a limiting factor and some turns I couldnt use all my units. (So instead spent those turns upgrading and reinforcing my tanks and airplanes to not completely waste their turn.) After Italy has taken the Suez channel just send the remaining Navy to the west of Africa through the transport loop. (To kill some convoys and force some allies Navy to move to the south to destroy them.)

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Late game:
After Perm is taken and Russia surrenders the rest is obviously very easy. I just bought a very large amount of tactical bombers and maxed out research on them. Then killed all the units in the UK with the airforce and easily invaded it. I didnt even really have a navy when I attacked the US. It had lost most of its navy outside of the UK to my airforce so I just sent all my troops in transports (including the bombers) and captured the US.

After Russia surrenders its really not much left, could just as well have stopped playing then instead of 'wasting' 3 hours mopping up the rest, but I was curious how easy it would be to win before the game ends in the middle of 1945.

[neilhammond]

I just finished a game as Axis. Moderate level, fog of war and oil consumption, starting 1939. It was fairly easy and I won at Feb 1945. (When I finally conquered Washington)

Thanks for the response. You've done better than me. It's taken me ages to beat the Allied AI at moderate level. I've just managed it, largely following the advice from vypuero.

Research on Organization and Armor. About 3-4 each and when you have maxed organization then switch to Industry. Ignore the navy completely. Just do as much damage you can with your 2 subs then dont worry about it. Try to always have the maximum allowed number of research lab. With Italy focus on Organization and infantry.

Early game:
Attack Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland etc... through France..

Interesting, I've researched armour but was focusing on Industry. I'll experiment with the change. I should probably also read the manual to see what effect they have on the game

Yes, I followed a similar attack sequence.

Middle game:
Buy 2 fighters and start research on Air (Dog fight). Buy a commander to put in France and another commander for the eastern front. Let Germany capture Bulgaria while Italy uses all his forces including a German airplane to capture Greece and the Middle East. (To get the oil)..

Agreed. I think I brought a TAC air unit and a fighter. Yes, I used Italy to take the ME and concentrate the German units on Russia.

After Bulgaria and Greece have been captured move all units to the Russian front, then upgrade all units and wait for them to have full organization. I attacked Russia about the time when Finland joins the axis. Try to move east as fast as possible. Just rush through in the middle aiming for Moscow and Perm. Don't waste units going for stuff like Tallin and the southern oil fields. If possible encircle large parts of the Russian army, but dont bother killing them with your eastern spearhead. Just let them sit there with no Organization and kill them off with your reinforcements..

Agreed. I was spending too long trying to mop up.

I took Moscow at the end of 1941 and Perm at the end of 1942. By the time I was running low on oil Italy had conquered the oil fields in the ME. Oil was still definately a limiting factor and some turns I couldnt use all my units. (So instead spent those turns upgrading and reinforcing my tanks and airplanes to not completely waste their turn.) After Italy has taken the Suez channel just send the remaining Navy to the west of Africa through the transport loop. (To kill some convoys and force some allies Navy to move to the south to destroy them.).

You did better than me. Moscow early '42 and Perm early '43. I didn't spot the Africa transport loop option.

Late game:
After Perm is taken and Russia surrenders the rest is obviously very easy. I just bought a very large amount of tactical bombers and maxed out research on them. Then killed all the units in the UK with the airforce and easily invaded it. I didnt even really have a navy when I attacked the US. It had lost most of its navy outside of the UK to my airforce so I just sent all my troops in transports (including the bombers) and captured the US.

Yes, once Russia goes, the Western Allies are in trouble.

An excellent game overall. It's taken me ages to figure out how to beat (at moderate level) the Allied AI. I found the Axis AI easier to beat because it doesn't defend France/Belgium/Denmark well.

[vypuero]

I suggest just looking at the tech tree from inside the game - click on the button on the left and you can see what each advance does in each area.

[marand]

Just finished a game with Axis on the most difficult level. (Oil on)
Took Moscow by end of 41, Perm by October 42 and England by Dec 43. Then I got bored and quit.

Pretty much used the same attack order I tried on moderate. Poland, Denmark, Norway, France etc. Greece and ME with Italians. Bulgaria when Romania joins. Attacked Russia 2 turns after Finland joins. Just went for Moscow/Perm and ignored the north/south part of Russia.

Focused research on Armour/Air, Blitzkrieg/dog fight mostly. By the time I attacked Russia I had maxed out the blitzkrieg on my tanks. Italians focused on Organization/Inf. The only little problem was that I was using too much oil (guess I had too many tanks and each costs 5 oil to move/attack). It caused the offensive to go slightly slower against Russia.

I really love the game, but I guess I need to find a human to play against since the AI isnt really much of a challenge.

[vypuero]

That is pretty good - you want to try a human game? tcp/ip?