spotting of planes in rain/snow

[deducter]

This really isn't a Afrika related comment, but more of a game engine comment. Is it possible to change it so that planes cannot spot at all in bad weather? It always bugged me a little that they can still see the unit beneath them even in rain/snow.

[Rudankort]

This really isn't a Afrika related comment, but more of a game engine comment. Is it possible to change it so that planes cannot spot at all in bad weather? It always bugged me a little that they can still see the unit beneath them even in rain/snow.

Your wish has been granted. Check out plane behavior in rain/snow in beta 3.

[Chris10]

I agree with this mechanic...Seems natural to me...
On the other side It would seem natural too if planes would spot along their exact flying path on clear weather , not left and right like in PG but on the hexes they directly fly over...

[Kamerer]

I agree with this mechanic...Seems natural to me...
On the other side It would seem natural too if planes would spot along their exact flying path on clear weather , not left and right like in PG but on the hexes they directly fly over...

That is a good suggestions; I have thought that, too.

The spotting directly underneath in rain/snow did not bother me too much, but not seeing a single thing in route just seems odd.

[Ballacraine]

Yes, I agree on both points.

Not allowing them to spot on the flight route, artificially limits their recce ability.
I think that applies to tactical bombers as well as fighters.
Perhaps not strategic bombers?

Balla.

[Rudankort]

To reduce plane recon ability is exactly the goal of existing implementation. Planes move too fast and can bypass too much to allow them to scout more than they already do. This would be bad for gameplay. As for "realism", in real life you could not get complete information about your opponent by just flying above him once or twice. Just think how large the maps in PzC are, and how much effort is required to really scout such a vast area. So no, there are no plans to change current behavior.

[Chris10]

To reduce plane recon ability is exactly the goal of existing implementation. Planes move too fast and can bypass too much to allow them to scout more than they already do. This would be bad for gameplay. As for "realism", in real life you could not get complete information about your opponent by just flying above him once or twice. Just think how large the maps in PzC are, and how much effort is required to really scout such a vast area. So no, there are no plans to change current behavior.

500km/h on 4000m is to fast ? Its the perfect velocity and from that plane you surely will see every bigger troop movement to a few km left or right of your flying path..In fact thats what happend.
Thats why it was suggested along their exact flying path and not as in Panzer General 2 hexes to left/right or above/bottom of their flying path.

Given the limited map size of the campaing maps the gameplay argument may be a factor though.
Still an implementation of that mechanic would not harm anybody but pls a good bunch of poeple I bet...
just add it to gamerules.pzdat PlaneSPOT 0 or 1 and set it to 0 for vanilla game
I mean the old PG AirZOC is in the gamerules.pzdat too although disabled for vanilla but at least people can choose
I certainly use AirZOC for example

[deducter]

Spotting for planes is horribly unbalanced for MP. Maybe allowing spotting along a straight line path might work, but even +1 zone radius would be unacceptable. Fog of war is a very important feature.

[Ballacraine]

The way it is now, recce units are of a lot more use than aircraft for spotting purposes.

If it is felt that is a worthwhile compromise for gameplay, fair enough, but that is not the way it really is.

I would have thought spotting just directly along the hex path would be OK for fair weather & perhaps cloudy too.

Balla.

[El_Condoro]

I might be about to show a high degree of ignorance here, but here goes...

What we are talking about is essentially using bombers and fighters for reconnaissance purposes. The issue, as I see it, is not what the pilots can or cannot see from their cockpits but how effectively and accurately that information can be relayed to the ground, verified for accuracy and then acted upon by ground units. Unless given the specific task of reconnoitering, a fighter will have a number of other tasks that require the pilot to be looking in the air, usually for enemy fighters, and not at the ground. Even if he does scan the ground, assuming dust, fog, and other causes of poor visibility allow him, how accurate can his assessment be of the force he think he sees? A plume of dust in the desert might be a column of tanks, or trucks, or both. Will he take a closer look? Not if he is assigned a task. Bomber crews are even less likely to act in a reconnaissance role - they have a specific task to fulfill.

That's my understanding of the tasks airmen undertook, in general, although I'm sure they also had hunt missions, too. Specific reconnaissance flights - with fighter support - were, of course, very different.

The problem for the game is that there is no error in observations. If an enemy is not in the FoW we know its composition, we know its size, heck we know its fuel and ammo and experience level! There is no loss of integrity of the message - a few plumes of dust is definitely this or that, not might be this or that. There is no breakdown of coordination between air and ground forces due to the accuracy of reports. There are no radio breakdowns - even the Russians will have perfect communications! Theoretically, and this may only happen rarely, a fighter could fly the length of an enemy front line and relay - immediately - the composition, in detail, of every enemy unit along its flight path.

Anyway, all this is my way of saying, I don't think non-reconnaissance aircraft should get flight path spotting.

[Chris10]

I might be about to show a high degree of ignorance here, but here goes...

What we are talking about is essentially using bombers and fighters for reconnaissance purposes. The issue, as I see it, is not what the pilots can or cannot see from their cockpits but how effectively and accurately that information can be relayed to the ground, verified for accuracy and then acted upon by ground units. Unless given the specific task of reconnoitering, a fighter will have a number of other tasks that require the pilot to be looking in the air, usually for enemy fighters, and not at the ground. Even if he does scan the ground, assuming dust, fog, and other causes of poor visibility allow him, how accurate can his assessment be of the force he think he sees? A plume of dust in the desert might be a column of tanks, or trucks, or both. Will he take a closer look? Not if he is assigned a task. Bomber crews are even less likely to act in a reconnaissance role - they have a specific task to fulfill.

That's my understanding of the tasks airmen undertook, in general, although I'm sure they also had hunt missions, too. Specific reconnaissance flights - with fighter support - were, of course, very different.

The problem for the game is that there is no error in observations. If an enemy is not in the FoW we know its composition, we know its size, heck we know its fuel and ammo and experience level! There is no loss of integrity of the message - a few plumes of dust is definitely this or that, not might be this or that. There is no breakdown of coordination between air and ground forces due to the accuracy of reports. There are no radio breakdowns - even the Russians will have perfect communications! Theoretically, and this may only happen rarely, a fighter could fly the length of an enemy front line and relay - immediately - the composition, in detail, of every enemy unit along its flight path.

Anyway, all this is my way of saying, I don't think non-reconnaissance aircraft should get flight path spotting.

Lots of assumptions my friend ...The whole issue fills a book but to cut a long story short: The truth is that the Wehrmachts mobile warfare with combined armored speaheads and combined arms was partly owed to the fact that every Luftwaffe plane was radio equipped (just like all tanks) and always reported any troop movement or enemy positions.
Especially planes with a crew bigger than one (which are literally all except Bf-109 and FW-190) had always a pair of eyes on the ground.
Air General Wever promoted particularly the education of special Luftwaffer Officers since 1936, who then got deployed to each divisional HQ of ground forces to assure harmonization with the air force and evaluate each information delivered by pilots. When the war started in 1939 no existing air force was anywhere near to the recon/tactical and close support abilities of the Luftwaffe...just sayin

[El_Condoro]

When the war started in 1939 no existing air force was anywhere near to the recon/tactical and close support abilities of the Luftwaffe

That's part of the problem for the game, though - all fighters and bombers of all nations will get the ability if it is given. That is, unless it was a trait that could be assigned to specific equipment.

[Chris10]

When the war started in 1939 no existing air force was anywhere near to the recon/tactical and close support abilities of the Luftwaffe

That's part of the problem for the game, though - all fighters and bombers of all nations will get the ability if it is given. That is, unless it was a trait that could be assigned to specific equipment.

yeah..I dont see the problem since the game is played from the german perspective..but as a matter of fact the AI would profit from it too which would make operations more dangerous for the player
as well it could be set to random..just like destroyers do not spot subs all the time..
I repeat..plant it into the gamerules.pzdat with on/off and abilitiy to set % spot probability and I dare to say half people would play with it once aware that this mechanic is there

errr...its just...sometimes I get pretty weird ideas it seems, as always somebody pops up fervently rejecting them even though I always say...optional,adjustable but it looks like readers love to ignore this part...its like a black spot in their retina

[El_Condoro]

Actually, it's not that the 'optional' thing is missed but there could be so many options. Trawling through the forums would bring out many ideas that people have brought up as options - I think I've probably added one or two. The developers have to decide whether to have a page full of options or not. So far, the only option that I have seen added is the 'Undo' option. Anyway, it's in their court...

[Rudankort]

Adding options to gamerules.pzdat or other places like that is not a problem per se, I just need to find time for that. Adding options to UI is a completely different story, I don't want less experienced players to be confused about a pile of options they don't understand, so things added to UI will be kept to an absolute minimum.

[Ballacraine]

In the fullness of time, there may be numerous suggestions which might require buttons or tick boxes.

If you are concerned about intimidating & confusing newcomers, hide them in a seperate page with an 'Advanced Options' button?

Perhaps even consider include a couple of blank toggle boxes for players to add their own Advanced Options that they use frequently?

Balla.

[Ballacraine]

When the war started in 1939 no existing air force was anywhere near to the recon/tactical and close support abilities of the Luftwaffe

That's part of the problem for the game, though - all fighters and bombers of all nations will get the ability if it is given. That is, unless it was a trait that could be assigned to specific equipment.

That may be a viable compromise.

It only needs to be over the actual flight path.

I think giving it to strategic Bombers is not a good idea.

Some fighters & tactical bombers?

Balla.

[Kamerer]

I had this idea a few weeks ago, perhaps it could be combined with what Bala just said:

I would like to see an air recon unit - say a Bf 110-class unit that had better recce features. I had one in my core with +1 spotting from a bonus and it was a wonderful unit. Long loiter capability (range), and defense so it wouldn't be jumped. I made it pretty much a dedicated recon unit instead of tactical bomber. I thought it would be both useful as well as historically viable to give a unit similar to this as a purchase option, given how the Luftwaffe operated as recounted above. Give this unit and this unit only the straight-line spotting, and you create an historically accurate and practical unit, and not destroy playability.

To counter it being an "uber fighter," strip away most of it's offensive air capability, but give it a healthy air defense. This would more accurately reflect the speed and skill of the recce aircraft pilots and their limited offensive capability.

By the time I got to late in the GC, I had it upgraded to a 410 and had earned two attack bonuses. With the added spotting and attack, this unit was a monster and frankly, almost unfair to have. Thus the idea to make a recce version with enhanced spotting but limited offensive capability.

[Rudankort]

The problem with recon planes is, I don't see how to balance them properly gameplay wise. They will likely make the recon duty trivial, at least in SP, but possible in MP too.

[deducter]

The problem with recon planes is, I don't see how to balance them properly gameplay wise. They will likely make the recon duty trivial, at least in SP, but possible in MP too.

Recon planes would most certainly make recon trivial in MP. The fog is one of the most important things in MP, especially now with the no undo feature, which prevents the undo scouting tactic. Move into the fog at your own risk. Recon planes for MP is completely unacceptable imo.

As for SP, I don't have a problem with recon planes as an option people can toggle. I personally think it trivializes recon in SP, but I don't think it makes a big enough difference in difficulty to matter much.

One huge thing I would wish for is the ability to customize the unit traits. For instance, there are traits like fortkiller or close, but what if I wanted to add additional traits and combat rules? As an example, I'd love a feature that allows me to add a trait to recon units that caps their damage taken from hard attacks at 10. There are combat rules like this already implemented (INI caps, various defense/attack bonuses). Similarly, it'd be nice to be able to adjust some combat rules. I don't know how much work it'd be to make new "unit_traits" and "combat_rules" files, but it would be awesome if it were possible in the future.