AT guns in buildings

[cardiffian]

This I find unrealistic given the time it takes to put it there. In fact, I feel AT guns should not be allowed to set up in buildings! There are exceptions though. If your starting a game in defence, then it should be allowed. Reason for this is, the defenders would have had lots of time to smash down walls and make a hole in the outer wall plus camouflage the gun. Sounds reasonable to me.
On the other hand, in a meeting engagement type battle your forces (or the enemies) would not have the time to do this. BUT, setting up a AT gun in rubble OR a damaged house should be allowed but the gun should have a time penalty placed on it, let's say something like three or four turns before it could open fire.
The same should apply with mortars in buildings.
Comments please

[junk2drive]

Agreed

Keep in mind that the original concept of the game was in conjuntion with the BBC and was intended to be a gateway for young people into war gaming.

There has been talk of an iron man version with hexes for those that wish a more realistic game.

[GottaLove88s]

Hehe, Cardiffian, you really don't like mortars do you?
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=35941

[GottaLove88s]

The problem with a 3-4 turn penalty after setting up an ambush is that in say, Meeting Engagement Redux, it takes at least 5 turns to transport an AT gun from the start to where it might be useful, probably longer, then a turn to drop it in place. It can't fire that turn. If you add another 3-4 turns of penalty time, you won't be using your AT guns until the game is halfway finished, and if your enemy is smart and scouts you out, he'll find you and bombard you. Then it would take another 1-4 turns to get a transport back to you, another 1-5 turns to move somewhere else, plus your 3-4 turn penalty. If you're lucky you might get to shoot 2 or 3 times per game, and even then a 17 pdr is as useful as a peashooter against a Tiger or KT... if you can't use them, they're not worth buying.

[GottaLove88s]

Worth remembering (as Iain and J2D constantly remind me ) that BA's only a game... Some players (me and the guys I play, I confess) love to set up ambushes, and even enjoy being ambushed by smart opponents (masochistic, I know, but I feel if I'm dumb enough to fall for it, then it's a challenging puzzle to figure my way back out afterwards)... If you don't want ambushes, create a scenario that completely removes mortars and AT guns... definitely recommend tinkering around with BA's Editor... Also the included tank/infantry-only maps, which exclude the exotic kit, are pretty good too

[IainMcNeil]

Bear in mind that a tile represents 100m so the AT gun and mortar are not "in" the building just in a built up area in cover. To get realistic tile sizes, ranges would have to be enormous and it would be unplayable as you'd spend 10 minutes scroll to get to a target.

[gortwillsaveus]

AT guns in a building not realistic?????
No offense,..but you really need to read up on WW2 history.
The Germans did this very thing in the waning days of the war and scored many many kills this way since the Allies were totally ambushed.
They also used tanks in this role, since the Allies commanded the air,..they used tanks as pill boxes.
They would put a Tiger in a barn and wait for the Allies.

[Old_Warrior]

Yes, AT guns in buildings was done quite a bit. Often it would be in a blown out building - they would use part of the building as cover. Or in warehouse type buildings.

BA is a "fun" type game and meant to draw people into the hobby. When compare to something like the other heavyweight squad level games it obviously comes up short. This does not mean that it cannot be improved but the concept is to get folks moving those tanks and squads around.

What I would say is this: if you want to play a "house rule" where AT guns cannot be MOVED to deploy into a building you might pull that one off. But I would just leave well enough alone.

I would like to see wire and mines. That is MUCH higher on my list of needs for the series. The Germans almost always laid mines when they went to hold a position. They would lay them mines and THEN dig the foxholes (the US doing it the other way around with sometimes finding themselves evicted out of the position before they could lay the mines).

[cardiffian]

Hehe, Cardiffian, you really don't like mortars do you?
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=35941

LMAO!!!!
I've been pounded by them for so many times, I still got the bruises!

[cardiffian]

AT guns in a building not realistic?????
No offense,..but you really need to read up on WW2 history.
The Germans did this very thing in the waning days of the war and scored many many kills this way since the Allies were totally ambushed.
They also used tanks in this role, since the Allies commanded the air,..they used tanks as pill boxes.
They would put a Tiger in a barn and wait for the Allies.

Read again what I put in my message
Later in the war the Germans did indeed put ATG's and tanks (and just tank turrets!) inside and around buildings.
And yes, while I'm no scholar of WW2 history, I have read and own many books concerning WW2 ETO (only part of WW2 that interests me).

[cardiffian]

Bear in mind that a tile represents 100m so the AT gun and mortar are not "in" the building just in a built up area in cover. To get realistic tile sizes, ranges would have to be enormous and it would be unplayable as you'd spend 10 minutes scroll to get to a target.

Fair comment Iain. Mind you, I wouldn't say no to bigger maps

[GottaLove88s]

Hey Cardiffian, Come play me on Fast N Sneaky if you want a big map? I can't promise no mortars, but I can promise you'll have a great game... viewtopic.php?f=87&t=36065&p=338940#p338940

[gortwillsaveus]

AT guns in a building not realistic?????
No offense,..but you really need to read up on WW2 history.
The Germans did this very thing in the waning days of the war and scored many many kills this way since the Allies were totally ambushed.
They also used tanks in this role, since the Allies commanded the air,..they used tanks as pill boxes.
They would put a Tiger in a barn and wait for the Allies.

Read again what I put in my message
Later in the war the Germans did indeed put ATG's and tanks (and just tank turrets!) inside and around buildings.
And yes, while I'm no scholar of WW2 history, I have read and own many books concerning WW2 ETO (only part of WW2 that interests me).

Thanks!
I did go back and read your post. I apologize for misreading it. I admit that I'm no scholar either, far from it.
We all love WW2 history, and there is so much detail that I learn something new every time I read a book about that period in time.
Sometimes I hear from people some pretty silly comments regarding what they thought happened during WW2.
Fortunately these comments do not come from anyone here.
With much respect to a fellow gamer.

[cardiffian]

Hey Cardiffian, Come play me on Fast N Sneaky if you want a big map? I can't promise no mortars, but I can promise you'll have a great game... viewtopic.php?f=87&t=36065&p=338940#p338940

Sorry mate, I'm finishing off my battles so I can concentrate on learning how to make maps and scenario's (campaigns). But I did download your updated scenario and will take a look at it later, to pick up some tips

[cardiffian]

AT guns in a building not realistic?????
No offense,..but you really need to read up on WW2 history.
The Germans did this very thing in the waning days of the war and scored many many kills this way since the Allies were totally ambushed.
They also used tanks in this role, since the Allies commanded the air,..they used tanks as pill boxes.
They would put a Tiger in a barn and wait for the Allies.

Read again what I put in my message
Later in the war the Germans did indeed put ATG's and tanks (and just tank turrets!) inside and around buildings.
And yes, while I'm no scholar of WW2 history, I have read and own many books concerning WW2 ETO (only part of WW2 that interests me).

Thanks!
I did go back and read your post. I apologize for misreading it. I admit that I'm no scholar either, far from it.
We all love WW2 history, and there is so much detail that I learn something new every time I read a book about that period in time.
Sometimes I hear from people some pretty silly comments regarding what they thought happened during WW2.
Fortunately these comments do not come from anyone here.
With much respect to a fellow gamer.

And thank you for the apology. Your a true Gentleman and I bet a great gamer!