ToN : Bavarians+Wurttembergers

[Ambiorix]

The introduction notes of the Army of Wurttemberg 1809 on page 24, state the small Corps can be used as part of a combined Bavarian or Saxon Force. Indeed, on page 23, the Saxon army can have a single division from the Wurttemberg or Bavarian list; However, the Bavarian army list mentions no Wurttenbergers, although the Wurttembergers were part of the (larger)Bavarian Force.
Is this intentional (if so, why?) or an error in the Bavarian 1809 list ?

Thx for the clarification,

a puzzled Bavarian commander

[terrys]

Historically Bavairians and Wurtemberugers did not fight in the same corps.
The entry actually says "part of the Bavarian FORCE" as opposed to "CORPS". The Saxons and Wurttembergers fought together at the Battle of Linz-Urfahr, and, although forming 2 seperate Corps, the entire force was only about the size of a single corps (in FOGN terms) - so are permitted to form a single joint corps.

I'll take a look at the size of the army in instances when the Bavarians and Wurttembergers fought together to see if a case for a single corps-sized formation is justified.

[Ambiorix]

Thank you Terrys for your excellent reply (as usual) and for considering Wurttembergers as allies for Bavarians;

However, does every extra single division has to be an integral component of an existing ' historical' Corps to qualify as an potential extra divison from another list ? i.e. were all those single divisions from Reserve or Guard Corps historically under the effective command of the ' line' Corps commander ?

Gruess Gott,

A Bavarian commander looking for some extra colour & flavour on the tabletop battlefield;

[Ambiorix]

FYI, several Wurttemberg battallions, a 6pdr battery and a dragoon regt assisted the Bavarians during the Tyrolean revolt in 1809. Also Baden had sent troops to the uprising in Tyrol;

Incidentally, in the 1809 Bavarian army list, no dragoons are allowed although squadrons of the 1st Dragoon Regt were present as well as newly raised rifle jaegers;

cheers,

[terrys]

However, does every extra single division has to be an integral component of an existing ' historical' Corps to qualify as an potential extra divison from another list ? i.e. were all those single divisions from Reserve or Guard Corps historically under the effective command of the ' line' Corps commander ?

Not really. We made a policy decision to allow components from other Corps of the same nationality to be used. Allowing different nationalities to supply an allied division is usually based on an historical mix, with some evidence of such a division being under the command of a diffenrent nations Corps commander. It's possible that we may have missed the odd battle though.

Incidentally, in the 1809 Bavarian army list, no dragoons are allowed although squadrons of the 1st Dragoon Regt were present as well as newly raised rifle jaegers;

Which list are you looking at? The one for 1809 on page 27 gives you up to 6 bases of dragoons.
My evidence for rifle-armed jaegers gives 36 per battalion - hardly enough to count as a 'rfile' unit - or even an attachment.
Light infantry was usually spread out, with 1 battalion per brigade, so would normally be allowed just as attachments. However, we conceed that they may have been grouped together within the division, hence the option to field them as a light infantry units instead.

[Ambiorix]

Which list are you looking at? The one for 1809 on page 27 gives you up to 6 bases of dragoons.
My evidence for rifle-armed jaegers gives 36 per battalion - hardly enough to count as a 'rfile' unit - or even an attachment.

On the same page 27 it explicitly states no dragoon bases may be used against Tyrolean insurgents although 1 Drag Regt was present in Tyrol.
Wrt to rifle-armed jaegers, I did not refer here to the rifle-jaegers of the 'line' battalions or of the regular light battalions, but to the 1809 volunteer jaeger battalions and Mountain rifle-Corps, raised as a response to the rifle-armed Tyrolean rebels;
I noticed no rifles are allowed at all in any Bavarian list, which is odd, given the long rifle tradition in Bavaria, surely at least some attachments should be available, especially as ALL Bavarian infantry units were armed with a (small) number of rifles.

Light infantry was usually spread out, with 1 battalion per brigade, so would normally be allowed just as attachments. However, we conceed that they may have been grouped together within the division, hence the option to field them as a light infantry units instead

In case of Bavarians, it is not necessary to 'conceed' as they not only fielded separate light infantry units on the battle field, but also grouped occasionally the light coys of the Line battalions together to fight/skirmish alongside the regular light battalions.

[terrys]

On the same page 27 it explicitly states no dragoon bases may be used against Tyrolean insurgents although 1 Drag Regt was present in Tyrol.

According to my sources there were 4 squadrons of Taxis Dragoons and 2 squadrons of Minuzzi dragoons taking part in this campaign. I'll have a word with Mike and consider removing that restriction.

I did not refer here to the rifle-jaegers of the 'line' battalions or of the regular light battalions, but to the 1809 volunteer Jaeger battalions and Mountain rifle-Corps, raised as a response to the rifle-armed Tyrolean rebels;

I can't find any evidence of these volunteers fighting with the main Bavarian army. If you can post any links that indicate they did I'll be happy to reconsider.

I noticed no rifles are allowed at all in any Bavarian list, which is odd, given the long rifle tradition in Bavaria, surely at least some attachments should be available, especially as ALL Bavarian infantry units were armed with a (small) number of rifles.

The numbers of rifles per unit is not large enough for them to be given the ‘rifle’ capability. I remember reading somewhere that the rifles grooves in their weapons were not spiralled either – although I haven’t able to confirm that report, it would certainly reduce their accuracy (although increase RoF). There may be a case for a small proportion of rifle armed attachments – but we really need some evidence that they operated as a group.

[Ambiorix]

I can't find any evidence of these volunteers fighting with the main Bavarian army. If you can post any links that indicate they did I'll be happy to reconsider.


I noticed no rifles are allowed at all in any Bavarian list, which is odd, given the long rifle tradition in Bavaria, surely at least some attachments should be available, especially as ALL Bavarian infantry units were armed with a (small) number of rifles.

The numbers of rifles per unit is not large enough for them to be given the ‘rifle’ capability. I remember reading somewhere that the rifles grooves in their weapons were not spiralled either – although I haven’t able to confirm that report, it would certainly reduce their accuracy (although increase RoF).

I am afraid all my sources are in German;
The manufacture of Bavarian rifles was very similar to Austrian (many were captured) and had 7 grooves of 3/4 twist along 89 cm of the barrel;
See Jägerstutzen (rifles) at http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/bay_infwaffen.html

In August 1809 Marshal Lefebre invaded Tyrol with 2 bavarian divisions (I and III) and 1 Saxon division; The I. Bav Div was reinforced by a brigade of volunteer jager and mountain Corps under command of Count Arco. Afterwards Arco teamed up with another volunteer jager Brigade under Count Oberndorff and joined the French forces under Gen Montmarie.
The final battle in Oct 1809 was planned and executed at Lefebres HQ by jager commander Kaspar Rainer.
http://www.sagen.at/doku/Andreas_Hofer/ ... _Isel.html
http://www.traunsteiner-tagblatt.de/inc ... php?id=847
http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/cant_infanterie.html
http://napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title=Bayerische_Armee
http://napoleonwiki.de/index.php?title= ... %281809%29