Second game, first questions!

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:54 pm

We begin our second game and want to check the following points.
A unit in march column can fire? And more specifically: an unreformed unit in march column with skirmishing and artillery attachments can fire at medium range?
A light infantry that can be only in skirmishing formation changes to tactical when entering buildings. I assume that it can also Defend the buildings. Also a Skirmishing infantry unit can assault buildings, as a unit on buildings don’t have a defined front? When firing at close range it has 4 dices but retain the –Poa for being skirmishers firing at close range?
An unreformed unit with skirmishes and artillery attachments fires at medium range to buildings with only two dices, right?
And finally a tactical point: As defender I have a building just in front of my area of deployment, so hurriedly move a unit of Hesse grenadiers inside. Now (2nd turn) it is being fired by three French units at medium range (12dice) and will not last long! Is there any advantage on defending buildings!

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:21 pm

1. p. 50 (3rd bullet top left column): Units in March Column cannot fire...

2. see the faq pages on buildings (they are very detailed)...yes, skirmish only unit can defend in tactical

I don't completely know the answer 100% about skirmishers attacking a building, but I would say no.

Since there are no 'to hit' modifiers for buildings, I would say no - POA to them.

See the faq pages...everything shoots with 4 dice

3. You should be able to survive. The to hit at medium range is 6+ and you get 4 dice back at each unit shooting at you (albeit 6+ as well).

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Thanks, this time we did correctly at every point, I think I’m beginning to get it. And tomorrow we’ll see if those grenadiers will resist until I can move forward the rest of the line! Losing a second time to the French will be too much, poor Cumberland!

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:56 pm

**Slips the French a few extra musketballs!**

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:02 am

Well that´s the game as it is now. In my left flank the Brunswick division is going to be assaulted by a French mass. In the right the Hanoverian cavalry has just arrived as is about to forcing the river! (5/ shoulder high. So I will soon have questions about rivers, I fear). In the middle the famous building, by the way my fears where mistaken as the Hessian grenadiers attacked by four enemy units are putting up a good defense.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:22 pm

moved here

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:03 pm

Having had a large unit of grenadiers hold onto a building for the entire game in our last game, I can tell you that building will be a hard nut for the Frenchies to crack. If you can put another unit behind to give the defenders rear support and add a couple extra dice to their defence. Keep a general nearby for rallying as that is the only way they will likely get you out of there is by breaking your grenadiers.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:43 pm

A light infantry that can be only in skirmishing formation changes to tactical when entering buildings. I assume that it can also Defend the buildings.

A unit can be both in tactical formation (2 deep) and in skirmish formation at the same time. All this means is that you place the unit in the building 2 bases deep. It's best to consider 'defending buildings' as an additional formation. They are not in skirmish, Tatcial nor extended line.

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Also a Skirmishing infantry unit can assault buildings, as a unit on buildings don’t have a defined front? When firing at close range it has 4 dices but retain the –Poa for being skirmishers firing at close range?

From FAQ1-Buildings "There are no POAs for shooting into or out of a building"
This is not true for combat. Skirmishers atacking a building will have a -POA

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An unreformed unit with skirmishes and artillery attachments fires at medium range to buildings with only two dices, right?

Yes. FAQ1 states (for medium and close range) "4 dice : All units .... capable of firing (ignoring artillery attachments)"
and ..... 2 Dice: If the unit is firing at medium range and its only dice are from an artillery attachment."

And finally a tactical point: As defender I have a building just in front of my area of deployment, so hurriedly move a unit of Hesse grenadiers inside. Now (2nd turn) it is being fired by three French units at medium range (12dice) and will not last long! Is there any advantage on defending buildings!

I think you've since found the advantage of defending a building.... 6's to hit and have to be broken before they leave.

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:02 pm

Well we are about to finish. Having by now mastered the basic mechanism, the game has really improved. The impression we have about the rules is really good, they work fast and realistic, even if some recurrent mistakes came and go for time to time. But that was our fault; optimistically we played this second game at 1200pts! And in the tactical level we have a lot to learn (but this is not a bad thing in itself!)
Only a few more questions.

A commander can recover only one of his units in his recovering phase. If there is for example a broken infantry and a unit of abandoned artillery he only can recover one of them or the artillery recovering guns doesn’t count. A corps commander can recover any unit in his command range, even an allied unit?

A unit needs a CMT to cross a river waist or shoulder high (or a bridge/ford if not in column). If the crossing is not completed in one turn it needs another CMT to finish next turn?

A unit of cavalry that takes 4 hits for firing is spent (page69) or only if the hits are at close range (page 53)?

An unlimbered artillery that attempts to fire at an assaulting unit at medium range, must pass a CMT, if it success but the Defensive fire doesn’t stop the assaulting unit, it must stay and fight or the guns are abandoned all the same?

Artillery must fire at all the targets in the same range band, or only if those targets are at close range. At medium or long range the target could be freely selected. I ask that, even if I assume that the answer will be that all targets must be fired, because in our game that makes for a lot of tape measuring (and some arguments) when pivoting artillery.

As we play using our Seven Year armies I have some question about army design (especially artillery) but I will post them in another topic in the proper section of the forum!
And again thanks to all for your help.

panda2 · Post by **panda2** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Glad you've been enjoying your games. Here's my thoughts on your questions.

Rekila wrote:A commander can recover only one of his units in his recovering phase. If there is for example a broken infantry and a unit of abandoned artillery he only can recover one of them or the artillery recovering guns doesn’t count. A corps commander can recover any unit in his command range, even an allied unit?

You do not need a commander to recover abandoned artillery. If the conditions on p 47 are met in your recovery phase then the CT is taken automatically and cannot be influenced by commanders. If you pass the guns are recovered, but are wavering, if you fail the guns are removed (p.48).

For other units, commanders can only recover one unit each. If you have two broken units and only one commander in range, you can only attempt to recover one, the other will be removed. Similarly, if you had one broken and one wavering unit and you chose to attempt to recover the wavering to disordered, the broken unit would be removed. Commanders can only recover units in their command and only if they are within 4MU (p.67). Allied Divisions forming apart of a corps are part of the Corps commamnders command and so can be recovered by him. If, however, you were refighting a large multi-corp battle where the allies were part of a seperate army outside the command structure, he could not. For example, Wellington could not recover Prussian units at Waterloo (they are outside his command), but he could recover Dutch-Belgium units, since they are part of the comand structure of the Anglo-Netherlands army.

Rekila wrote:A unit needs a CMT to cross a river waist or shoulder high (or a bridge/ford if not in column). If the crossing is not completed in one turn it needs another CMT to finish next turn?

Crossing a river is treated the same as crossing any other obstacle I believe (p.79). The unit must start its move touching the obstacle, it then takes the CMT and if it is passed it is moved directly forward the minimum distance until its rear edge is touching the obstacle (p.80).

Rekila wrote:A unit of cavalry that takes 4 hits for firing is spent (page69) or only if the hits are at close range (page 53)?

I hadn't noticed the difference until you pointed it out! I've always played the rule on p.69, but now I've seen the text on p.53 I think it probably makes more sense since would limit cavalry becoming spent to close combat and fire recived during assaults.

Rekila wrote:An unlimbered artillery that attempts to fire at an assaulting unit at medium range, must pass a CMT, if it success but the Defensive fire doesn’t stop the assaulting unit, it must stay and fight or the guns are abandoned all the same?

Artillery only fires at assaulting units at medium range if it choses to "fire and retire" as its response. If it passes the CT, but doesn't stop the assault then it retires, which means it abandons guns if foot artillery or evades if horse artillery. Instead of choosing to "fire and retire" an artillery unit can instead choose to "stand and fire". This still requires a CT, which if failed results in the guns being abandoned etc... However, if the CT is passed the artillery acts as any other unit that "stands and fire" and will fire at close range. If this fire does not stop the assault the assaulting unit is moved into contact and a melee will occur in the combat phase.

Rekila wrote:Artillery must fire at all the targets in the same range band, or only if those targets are at close range. At medium or long range the target could be freely selected. I ask that, even if I assume that the answer will be that all targets must be fired, because in our game that makes for a lot of tape measuring (and some arguments) when pivoting artillery.

There are a couple of recent threads on this. Essentially, you must fire at all targets in the nearest range band that are at least partially in front of the unit. However, this is assessed after any pivot has been made. There is no requirement to pivot to fire at the closest target and you can pivot away from the closest target, so that its not partially in front of the unit, if you wish.

Hope these responses have been helpful.

Andy D

BrettPT · Post by **BrettPT** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Rekila wrote:A unit of cavalry that takes 4 hits for firing is spent (page69) or only if the hits are at close range (page 53)?
I hadn't noticed the difference until you pointed it out! I've always played the rule on p.69, but now I've seen the text on p.53 I think it probably makes more sense since would limit cavalry becoming spent to close combat and fire recived during assaults.

I think page 53 is correct, being more specific. Also make sense as 'Spent' I believe represents exhaustion - blown horses for cavalry.

Cheers
Brett

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:21 pm

I think page 53 is correct, being more specific. Also make sense as 'Spent' I believe represents exhaustion - blown horses for cavalry.

Seems to be page 55 in my book.

Page 69 confusingly states "A cavalry may will also become spent if it taes 4 hits from shooting."
The obvious error here is that the word "will" needs to be deleted.
The statement is just pointing out the points at which a cavalry unit can become spent, and does not override the statement on page 55.

To recap: A cavalry unit only becomes spent from firing if it takes 4 hits from shooting during the assault phase.
Note that this is a bullet point and NOT part of the "Results of Firing Table" therefore ithe number of hits are not reduced by 1 for superior and large units before assessing.

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:53 am

Two last questions about obstacles: What happen when the enemy is not in contact with the obstacle, e.g. 4cm away (in 25mm), as there is not enough space you can’t cross the obstacle but can assault across it at the enemy unit?

Can a unit be split by an obstacle, e.g a unit in tactical moving along a wall with one file at either side of it?

Well thanks to all. Obviously its page 55 (I can’t understand my own handwrite!) Especially important was the point about cavalry, the French player has a strong opinion on the matter. She absolutely dislikes seeing her beloved French cavalry being beaten and even if I put most of the blame on the rules authors, as I was the only one physically present I took the worst of it!

panda2 · Post by **panda2** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:24 pm

Rekila wrote:What happen when the enemy is not in contact with the obstacle, e.g. 4cm away (in 25mm), as there is not enough space you can’t cross the obstacle but can assault across it at the enemy unit?

This questions was covered at viewtopic.php?f=188&t=34561&hilit=obstacles. In brief, a unit in contact with an obstacle which wants to cross can take a CMT and assault the enemy.

Rekila wrote:Can a unit be split by an obstacle, e.g a unit in tactical moving along a wall with one file at either side of it?

I really don't know the answer to this. In most circumstances where the obstacle is continous running from board edge to board edge or completely surrounding a field it couldn't occur since in you would have to move the unit completely accross the obstacle (p.80). However, if the obstacle had an end I suppose you could approach from that end and have a file moving along it on either side. In these circumstances I think think the unit should get no advantage and should not be considered to be defending the obstacle (or in cover if its a wall) and would need to make a CMT to cross the obstacle if it wanted to get both files on the same side. However, those are just my thoughts.

Andy D

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:26 pm

Thanks Andy that’s what we did, in both cases. Is the French player you know, I play by the book, i.e following historical tactics, but she doesn’t! She makes the more unusual things and more often than not gets good results

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Can a unit be split by an obstacle, e.g a unit in tactical moving along a wall with one file at either side of it?

It certainly can. It's doesn't count as an obstacle unless the enemy has to assualt ACROSS it.
For movement it doesn't make any difference unless one side counts as different terrain (i.e. a ploughed field).
If you attempt to move entirely to one side or the other you will have to take a CMT.

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:28 am

Thanks Terrys, and one last question. What happens when an action needs more than one CMT e.g an irregular cavalry unit want to assault the front of an enemy unit ( a CMT is needed) and to do so must pass trough friends, (skirmishes of the same division) that needs also a CMT. The move can’t be made. Only one CMT is needed (and 1 command point). Two CMTs should be rolled and two command points spent.

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:23 pm

2 CMTs and 2 CPs are required.... not easy for irregulars.

Rekila · Post by **Rekila** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:34 pm

Well thanks to all for your help as that’s definitively my last question! But I have some about army design that I should post soon….