Firing : Target Priorities

[atatnet]

Page 51 2nd column, second last bullet states: "The firers...1 cohesion level lower if a line cannot be drawn from both its front corners...target unit".

Page 53 diagram, upper right hand corner states: "Unit D fires...loses 1 dice in 3...one of its front corners can't draw a line...target".

These two statements seem to be conflicting or are different from each other. My understanding is in the first statement, if BOTH front corners of the firer cannot draw a line to the target, the firer cannot see the target and therefore cannot shoot t the target.

Am I misinterpreting something?

[LeslieMitchell]

I asked the same question, on thread viewtopic.php?f=188&t=35513

hope this helps

[terrys]

Page 51 2nd column, second last bullet states: "The firers...1 cohesion level lower if a line cannot be drawn from both its front corners...target unit".

Page 53 diagram, upper right hand corner states: "Unit D fires...loses 1 dice in 3...one of its front corners can't draw a line...target".

These two statements seem to be conflicting or are different from each other. My understanding is in the first statement, if BOTH front corners of the firer cannot draw a line to the target, the firer cannot see the target and therefore cannot shoot t the target.

Not true - If ONE corner cannot draw a line to its target it qualifies both statments.
You seem to be inferring that
a) "cannot draw a line from BOTH front corners" is the same as
b) "Both front corners cannot draw a line".
Statment (a) is true if EITHER of its corners cannot draw a line.
Statement (b) is only true of BOTH front corners can draw a line.

[LeslieMitchell]

Page 51 2nd column, second last bullet states: "The firers...1 cohesion level lower if a line cannot be drawn from both its front corners...target unit".

Page 53 diagram, upper right hand corner states: "Unit D fires...loses 1 dice in 3...one of its front corners can't draw a line...target".

These two statements seem to be conflicting or are different from each other. My understanding is in the first statement, if BOTH front corners of the firer cannot draw a line to the target, the firer cannot see the target and therefore cannot shoot t the target.

Not true - If ONE corner cannot draw a line to its target it qualifies both statements.
You seem to be inferring that
a) "cannot draw a line from BOTH front corners" is the same as
b) "Both front corners cannot draw a line".
Statment (a) is true if EITHER of its corners cannot draw a line.
Statement (b) is only true of BOTH front corners can draw a line.

then should the text on Page 51 say either corner rather than both then?

[atatnet]

then should the text on Page 51 say either corner rather than both then?

Yes-this would make the intention of the rule clearer.

[quackstheking]

Sorry, I must be dim. If neither of a units front corners can draw a line to a target but the centre can, is the unit allowed to fire at the target?

Don

[gibby]

I hope the answer to this is No? I'm not sure its clear from the rule book.

Too much cheese if its not a no.

Jim

[quackstheking]

I agree. I can see units sitting just behind two other units with a 3 mm gap in front of the centre of the unit and claiming it can fire!

don

[LeslieMitchell]

I hope the answer to this is No? I'm not sure its clear from the rule book.

Too much cheese if its not a no.

Jim

well according to the text on page 51 the answer is yes

[LeslieMitchell]

I agree. I can see units sitting just behind two other units with a 3 mm gap in front of the centre of the unit and claiming it can fire!

don

I think I might need to change my deployment

[Blathergut]

I agree. I can see units sitting just behind two other units with a 3 mm gap in front of the centre of the unit and claiming it can fire!

don

Page 49 (under Firing Mech. paragraph): No unit may fire through a gap of less than one base width.

So I would assume:

If both front corners cannot draw to the target, you drop one level for shooting. You still have half your unit able to see the target. No?

[LeslieMitchell]

I agree. I can see units sitting just behind two other units with a 3 mm gap in front of the centre of the unit and claiming it can fire!

don

Page 49 (under Firing Mech. paragraph): No unit may fire through a gap of less than one base width.

So I would assume:

If both front corners cannot draw to the target, you drop one level for shooting. You still have half your unit able to see the target. No?

what about a large unit then?

also what happen when you shoot though a gap which is at an angle

..........XXX
.............ZZZ
......YYY



......TTT

The gap between ZZZ and YYY is more the 40MM but not when you draw an angled

[Blathergut]

Large unit would shoot as a small unit I would assume, since one base is completely blocked since there is only one base width available.

I suppose there are many geometric possibilities. I would use common sense in a situation, or player agreement. I suppose for those needing further clarification an author would have to wade in here.

[LeslieMitchell]

Large unit would shoot as a small unit I would assume, since one base is completely blocked since there is only one base width available.

I suppose there are many geometric possibilities. I would use common sense in a situation, or player agreement. I suppose for those needing further clarification an author would have to wade in here.

Personal I would like the rule to say if you can draw a line from BOTH corners it's blocked from firing. In this case the large unit could shoot as a small unit, and lose dice because one corner of the small unit is blocked, but I'm not the author and I'm sure he had his reason for the wording of the rule.

[terrys]

Personal I would like the rule to say if you can draw a line from BOTH corners it's blocked from firing. In this case the large unit could shoot as a small unit, and lose dice because one corner of the small unit is blocked, but I'm not the author and I'm sure he had his reason for the wording of the rule.

I quite agree. I don't rememberthis never came up in Beta testing. In theory you can fire with reduced dice it only the centre of your unit can see the target.

I will update the errata to add the following:
> An enemy unit cannot be fired at unless the firing unit can draw a line to any part of the target from both the centre of its front edge AND from one of its front corners.
Or words to that effect.....

[atatnet]

I quite agree. I don't rememberthis never came up in Beta testing. In theory you can fire with reduced dice it only the centre of your unit can see the target.

I will update the errata to add the following:
> An enemy unit cannot be fired at unless the firing unit can draw a line to any part of the target from both the centre of its front edge AND from one of its front corners.
Or words to that effect.....

Excellent, and thank you!

[LeslieMitchell]

I quite agree.

Thanks

[Philip]

That amendment might give us some inconsistent or unexpected results -
A small unit lined up exactly behind a one base-width gap between two units will be able to shoot, but if off-set even slightly to the side won't be able to do so despite having the same frontage exposed to shoot. That's the sort of geometric annoyance that is so offputting to players.

A large unit with almost half its frontage covered by a unit in front will be able to shoot. But if only a small part of both front corners are covered and yet a larger frontage is exposed it won't be able to shoot.

So I would stick with the current rule - so long as there is a base-width gap and the centre of the unit can see the enemy, then the unit can shoot at a reduced rate.

[gibby]

Either way is geometric. Players will adapt to whatever the ruling is.

I think maybe a dice deduction for each front corner that cannot see but I'm cool with Terry's current ruling.

cheers
Jim

.

[panda2]

I think I'd have to agree with Philip on this. A large unit behind a 2.5 base width gap could find itself totally unable to fire despite the fact that 80%+ on its men/guns had a clear view of the enemy (in reality the figure might well be higher since "units" don't actually occupy the whole tactical footprint). On the other hand a small unit would be able to fire at full dice. As the rules are currently written, the large unit would be able to fire losing 1 dice in 3. This is a bit less than 80%, but seems a reasonable compromise in the interest of simplicity and puts the large unit on the same dice as the small unit in most cases.

Andy D