Skirmish shooting

[deadtorius]

Just to make sure I got it right, skirmishers can shoot out to medium range, 6Mu and shoot as light infantry 5 dice for small, before taking the -POA for skirmish firing.
When shooting at close range they get 3 dice for a small unit and the -POA for shooting.

One of these days I will have to run some Grenzers and just want to make sure I am right about their combat abilities, or lack there of.

[Blathergut]

By skirmishers you mean light infantry in skirmish formation. Being in skirmish formation doesn't affect the number of dice available (small unit @ med. range = 5 dice; close range = 3). It does give them a - poa on the To Hit Score for firing at close range only (no mod for firing in skirmish at medium but people shooting at you take a - poa.)

[Blathergut]

These will be interesting! Go with the poors!!!

[BaronVonBurge]

What happens with a Light Infantry Unit with a Skirmisher attachment when to goes into Skirmish Formation?

Do they still get the bonus dice for shooting?

[panda2]

Light infantry, whether in skirmish formation or not, always get 5 dice for a small unit and 6 dice for a large unit at medium range. Adding a skirmisher attachment adds no dice (see table for Medium Range on p.49 of rules) and, in deed, since ToN skirmisher attachments can no longer be added to light infantry units (see p.159 ToN).

At medium range the only effects of being in skirmish are that your opponent has a -1 to hit and will therefore need 6s to hit you and that you can evade if assaulted.

At close range light infantry in skirmish formation also have a -1 to hit, meaning both sides will need 5+ if the opponent is in close formation. Also at close range light infantry in skirmish formation will fire with fewer dice, 3 for a small unit and 4 for a large unit, compared to 4 and 6 for a unit in close formation. There are no additional dice for either side from skirmisher attachments at close range, although units will get extra dice from artillery attachments (light infantry in skirmish formation do not get added dice for artillery attachments at medium range, but there doesn't seem to be any restriction at close range see p.49 of rules).

Generally, if your opponent move into close range you will want to retire your light infantry in skirmish formation to medium range. However, if there is difficult terrain between you and your opponent it may actually be quite difficult for him to get into close range, since infantry not in skirmish order have a maximum move of 2MU in difficult terrain, and if he does move into the difficult terrain he could end up firing at two cohesion levels lower, which would swing even a close range firefight in favour of the light infantry in skirmish formation.

Andy D

[BaronVonBurge]

Guess I need "ToN" now!

And does a skimish unit in extended line get the double dice at medium range (i.e. 10) if shooting bothn "halves" at the same target unit?

Thanks for the quick reply!

BVB

[deadtorius]

The extended line bonus only applies for short range shooting, you can't split the unit at medium range so the answer is no.
You would still get 5 or 6 dice if you were in an extended skirmish line at medium range.

Considering how wide you are, and if forced to evade and you go through friends they have to take a CMT, I consider it a bit of a risk to go into extended line with them. If they are charged they have to evade and hard to shift around friends if you are 4 or 6 bases wide.

[deadtorius]

One upside I have considered is that they can freely move into and out of buildings, no CMT, and if defending they can only be forced out by being routed. That has some possibilities I think

[terrys]

One upside I have considered is that they can freely move into and out of buildings, no CMT, and if defending they can only be forced out by being routed. That has some possibilities I think

It's certainly a valid use of Grenzers. I'd normally go for the poor/drilled versions but if you have buildings to occupy the average/conscript/skirmishers can be quite useful.

[Scrumpy]

Be brave, average irregular Grenzers is the way to go!

[Blathergut]

*Makes sure the next battle takes place on the Steppes of Austria*

[bahdahbum]

What happens with a Light Infantry Unit with a Skirmisher attachment when to goes into Skirmish Formation?

Frommemory, light infantry cannot have SK attachment .

Skirmish formation : is it in extended line ? ( for light infantry ) . I cannot remember ...

[Blathergut]

Skirmish formation and extended line formation would be two different formations, I would suspect.

[bahdahbum]

How to represent it

[Blathergut]

I would return the two densely packed light infantry bases to the unit. Hmmm...if all you had were 4 skirmish bases...I guess you'd have to make some sort of note...unless skirmishing troops can't be in extended line...is there an exception like that?

Where's panda2 when we need him??

[panda2]

If your question is "Can light infantry in skimish formation also be in extended line?" then I don't think there is a straightforward answer to this, other than I can see nothing in the rules that would prohibit it.

On p.16 skirmish is listed as a seperate formation that can be used by light infantry and light cavalry only.

On p.107 skirmishers are defined as:

-Units of Infantry entirely in Skirmish formation.
-All units of Irregular light cavalry.
-Units of Regular light cavalry deployed in single rank (Extended Line)

So it is clear that by definition regular light cavalry have to be in extended line to be skirmishers and whilst irregular light cavalry are considered skirmishers in any formation, if they want to be able to evade (without needing to fail a CT) in response to assault (see p.29 last bullet under "Reaction Moves") they will need to be in a single rank and thus in extended line. I'd therefore conclude that light cavalry skirmishers can (or must if regular) be in extended line.

The only reference I can find what is required for light infantry to form skirmish formation (and therefore be considered skirmishers) is on p.85 right hand column second paragraph, which states:

"A unit of light infantry may also be formed up entirely in Skirmish order, in which case all Infantry bases should be replaced by Skirmisher bases."

There is no suggestion that the unit needs to be in a particular formation first or that you need do anything other than replace the close order bases in their current position with skirmisher bases, which suggests that whatever formation the unit was in before, tactical or extended line, it retains. Nor does there seem to be any suggestion on p.39 that a unit in skirmish formation can't change from tactical to extended or visa versa, whilst still being in skirmish formation. In deed, the only limitation on formation changes by units in skirmish formation seems to be that they cannot change formation directly into a square, but must take 2 moves changing from skirmish order first, as one move, then forming a square as a second move (see p.40).

None of this is very decisive I know. However, given that light cavalry can be in extended line and be considered skirmishers it would seem odd if the same were not also true for light infantry. Perhaps someone involved in the playtesting might be able to provide some insight into how is was understood in the beta test, or better still an author response (making allowance for the other demands on their time, of course).

Andy D

[BaronVonBurge]

Thanks much. I've learned a lot beyond the three games I've tried.

[deadtorius]

Guess it all goes back to the age old question, is skirmish a tactical formation, and can you only form extended line while in a tactical formation.

As for Grenzers, after 1809 you don't get a choice, they have to be skirmishing 100% of the time. Either way don't think I would want them to have to actually try to hold anything as poor conscript, and they can't as irregulars. Aside from our very first game they have never been seen in the ranks of my corps. Now that I have new figs guess I should consider using them one of these days.
I made up 2 extra skirmishing bases for my jagers so later on they can skirmish, which they can't in 1809. Looks like I might have to try a new 1813 list sometime again...

[panda2]

Deadtorius,

I've been meaning to say something on irregular Grenzers in response to your questions, but had got rather side tracked by the rules questions, which I thought were better dealt with in seperate posts. Although I would probably always take Grenzers as poor, drilled when available, like you I've been thinking about how one might use the irregular Grenzers, since they are compulsory in the Austrian lists in ToN from 1813 onwards (you can still field poor, drilled against the Russians in 1812 though).

From the above discussion of light infantry in skirmish order above you can see that I do think they could have a role in difficult terrain. The key question is whether there is anything they could usefully do open terrain. Obviously, without terrain to prevent cavalry riding them down or infantry assaulting them or moving into close range, its going to be hard for them to achieve anything in isolation. It is, however, worth noting that even re-rolling 6s they will still on average win a firefight at medium range with troops that are not in skirmish order (including artillery). Of course, if up against veteran or drilled light infantry deployed in skirmish order they will take a beating (needing 6s and re-rolling 6s is not good), unless the Grenzers launch an assault.

Bearing in mind these (very limited) pros and (extensive) cons, the best idea I can come up with is to use them as a cheap (but much less effective) alternative to horse artillery to support cavalry against infantry. Obviously, your cavalry would deal with enemy cavalry and would be an effective method of discouraging enemy infantry from attempting an assault, moving into close range or adopting skirmish formation. Whilst the Grenzers couldn't offer the firepower of a horse artillery unit, they wouldn't need to waste a move unlimbering and could engage in a firefight straight away.

I've not tried this as yet, so if you do use irregular Grenzers let me know how you got on.

Andy D

[BrettPT]

One advantage for Austrian Grenz in skirmish formation is that they can move 6MU, as opposed to 4MU if they are not in skirmish formation.
However, given that you can always chose to use your poor drilled Grenz in skirmish if you want to, this is no advantage for the average irregular Grenz option.

The primary role of LI is medium range firepower. You do not want to be re-rolling your 6s to hit (for being irregular) if you can avoid it. So poor drilled for me.

Cheers
Brett