Clash of the Mortals (Allied Major Victory)

[rkr1958]

[rkr1958]

I'm posting the following so we (as the GS community) can discuss it. I like and respect my opponent a great deal and what follows is in no way a criticism of him or anyone else; but is more in line with what is proper game etiquette. If someone tries a strategy that's "off the beaten path" then, in my opinion, it's incumbent on that person to know all the implications of that strategy OR be willing to accept whatever surprises arise from it. The best way to ensure that you're not surprised is to hotseat it before hand. Of course, you can ask folks but the most authoritative source on the matter is hotseat. That is, the game engine is never wrong with respect to the rules and how things work. I'm not talking about the debate on how things should work or should be implemented; but how they do work. The time to debate how things should work (in my opinion) is during playtesting (at any point in the game) or if out of playtesting either before or after a game is played. By the way, I'm not talking about bugs; but how things work.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone. I'm not! I just think it's valuable to discuss this topic as a community. In my opinion (aside from play-testing -- which this isn't), you either know what the consequences are of certain actions during the game or, if not and you're surprised, then you accept them, learn from them and move on. Truthfully, I'm often surprise by both my opponent and the game engine. While this may panic or frustrate me game wise, I will never let my opponent know this. I will congratulate him on a very good and / or innovative move. The last thing I want my opponent to know is that he's gotten to me in any way.

Guys (mainly Borger and Paul),

I like to think I am a pretty good sport……I have accepted the Spanish activation situation in this game (which is counter to my expectations and the description in the "Political" brochure), mainly because of Ronnie's great sports man ship in replaying a couple of turns resulting from my lack of understanding regarding how to effectively blockade Gibraltar…….and I still feel slightly hard done by with the supply situation in the Med, which is a complex matter that I still feel requires a re-think, but I have just accepted it and moved on, but it has impacted this game because of my late attempt to conquer French North Africa, ultimately causing the Axis to miss out on activating Spain…….all of which is a circular argument. So, I will just let it all pass.

However, De Gaulle just turned up around the port of Agadhir, where I had stationed a German Inf Corp (which seems to have evaporated), not to mention having just captured all hexes in and around the coast by running German units along the coast. I firmly believe this is a glitch. This is not right. I suspect that this 'appearance' of De Gaulle and the "Free French" forces is biased / based on an acceptance of the French Armistice type situation. The Axis in this game have been at war with the Free French for more than a year. De Gaulle and his cronies should have been spread out across French North Africa or preferably in the US or UK when the Axis rejected the Armistice, certainly so after the Axis had captured Agadhir. To have him / them suddenly land UNOPPOSED and 'destroy' my Axis forces is…….not right………I apologise…….I think I might be getting too vitriolic. My point is, there is something amiss here ?

I have attached Ronnie's latest turn.

I'm sorry you feel blindsided by the Free French entry; but this is something that's a known feature and is in fact just discussed in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=336242#p336242

The German units that were in the Free French hexes should we sent back to the force pool. Can you verify this?

You can think is as if the French invaded the southern edge of the map from outside the map border.

I just don’t understand why you’re bothering with this map area at all when the Russians are rushing towards Berlin. Aren’t those German units better used at home instead in an area of no strategic interest? Agadir on the map is actually not Agadir, but more like Dakar in Senegal. It’s the symbol of the off-map Free French colonies where the French had a supply source. The Germans should not be able to reach this area. The analogy is the UK forces arriving at Basra. These units were actually units sent from the Far East (Australia, New Zealand, India, Singapore etc.). So they entered the map at one location.

Many games have off-map locations where units can enter on-map from these off-map locations. GS doesn’t have off-map so we have to use cities like Basra and Agadir for that. 99% of the Axis won’t bother with Agadir. There is no strategic value for the Germans to capture this port. If you really want to crush the Free French then you can position the Germans outside the area and rush in after they spawn.

[trulster]

I think he has a point, it is quite silly that the FF autoappear and teleport Germans to force pool. Should be coded so that if Axis control Agadir, then the FF appear in any free US hexes instead. If Allies managed to lose all of Africa then they deserve to have to strain to actually reinvade the place from the US.

[Cybvep]

Yes, but they don't actually lose all of Africa. They still have many off-map bases.

[rkr1958]

If Allies managed to lose all of Africa then they deserve to have to strain to actually reinvade the place from the US.

Do you realize how large all of Africa is? I think it would be quite impossible for the allies to completely lose the entire continent to the axis.

I think he has a point, it is quite silly that the FF autoappear and teleport Germans to force pool.

And this makes my point perfectly. This is arguing how you think it should be; not how it actually is. I'm not saying one way or the other which way is the best --- I'm just saying which way it is. Barring play testing or a bug; I'm making the case that one should play and accept the game as it is when started. I'm not saying one shouldn't make a case for a change; but arguing for a change during a game because you were surprised by the game engine is different I think.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think he has a point, it is quite silly that the FF autoappear and teleport Germans to force pool. Should be coded so that if Axis control Agadir, then the FF appear in any free US hexes instead. If Allies managed to lose all of Africa then they deserve to have to strain to actually reinvade the place from the US.

Most of Africa is OFF map. So losing Agadir means nothing regarding the arrival of the Free French. If this is changed at all then the territory around Agadir will be flagged Free French and neutral until Free France activates.

[Cybvep]

I think problems like these arise from the fact that Ronnie's opponent doesn't have much experience with the gameplay after the rejection of the armistice.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

True. You play and learn the game the hard way.

I just can't see why the Axis would want to fight down in Agadir. It's a coastal hex so it can easily be liberated by the Allies. Casablanca can also be liberated easily. Rushing to Casablanca before USA joins the Allies is probably an interesting strategy because you gain Spain on your side. But moving to Agadir serves no purpose for the Axis. The Free French units were created off-map and would arrive somewhere in Africa. Putting them in the force pool isn't right because the units are US in the game and can then only be placed in US cities. The Free French never were in USA. We have the Free French as US units because they then get tech advances. There isn't room for another major power in the game engine.

[ncali]

I just can't see why the Axis would want to fight down in Agadir. It's a coastal hex so it can easily be liberated by the Allies. Casablanca can also be liberated easily. Rushing to Casablanca before USA joins the Allies is probably an interesting strategy because you gain Spain on your side. But moving to Agadir serves no purpose for the Axis. The Free French units were created off-map and would arrive somewhere in Africa. Putting them in the force pool isn't right because the units are US in the game and can then only be placed in US cities. The Free French never were in USA. We have the Free French as US units because they then get tech advances. There isn't room for another major power in the game engine.

There is one good reason to take Agadir, assuming it is not too tough. It means the Allies actually have to land in North Africa, using up an amphibious point or more, some PP's, and perhaps having to repair the port before it is useful as a staging area. I can understand why you want the Free French to appear here as a staging area - but if so, why not just make some impassable hexes to the North. Then it will truly be a staging area, and the Allies will be forced to make their amphibious landing in North Africa if they choose.

[rkr1958]

I can understand why you want the Free French to appear here as a staging area - but if so, why not just make some impassable hexes to the North. Then it will truly be a staging area, and the Allies will be forced to make their amphibious landing in North Africa if they choose.

That's actually not a bad suggestion. You could make a semi-circle of hexes around the Agadir area unplayable. Then the only way to get to and from there is via transport. You could make the size of the "playable" hexes inside of the semicicle 4 hexes, which is equal to the number of Free French force that spawns. And, any units there (axis or allied) at the time of their spawning are eliminated. I think that would keep the Agadir area exactly as it's intended to be.

[trulster]

If Allies managed to lose all of Africa then they deserve to have to strain to actually reinvade the place from the US.

Do you realize how large all of Africa is? I think it would be quite impossible for the allies to completely lose the entire continent to the axis.

I think he has a point, it is quite silly that the FF autoappear and teleport Germans to force pool.

And this makes my point perfectly. This is arguing how you think it should be; not how it actually is. I'm not saying one way or the other which way is the best --- I'm just saying which way it is. Barring play testing or a bug; I'm making the case that one should play and accept the game as it is when started. I'm not saying one shouldn't make a case for a change; but arguing for a change during a game because you were surprised by the game engine is different I think.

By "all of Africa" I of course meant the Africa that is on the game map. About this specific game yeah naturally the player has to accept the rules as is, but I think this could be a worthwhile fix in future versions

[pk867]

This was discussed with the earlier beta testers earlier back on the first version with enhancements done to create its current form.

The current form is the way the game plays. We may discuss this at a later date, but we want to play the game in its current form and see over time how the games play out and

the who are the winners and losers and by what degree.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I just can't see why the Axis would want to fight down in Agadir. It's a coastal hex so it can easily be liberated by the Allies. Casablanca can also be liberated easily. Rushing to Casablanca before USA joins the Allies is probably an interesting strategy because you gain Spain on your side. But moving to Agadir serves no purpose for the Axis. The Free French units were created off-map and would arrive somewhere in Africa. Putting them in the force pool isn't right because the units are US in the game and can then only be placed in US cities. The Free French never were in USA. We have the Free French as US units because they then get tech advances. There isn't room for another major power in the game engine.

There is one good reason to take Agadir, assuming it is not too tough. It means the Allies actually have to land in North Africa, using up an amphibious point or more, some PP's, and perhaps having to repair the port before it is useful as a staging area. I can understand why you want the Free French to appear here as a staging area - but if so, why not just make some impassable hexes to the North. Then it will truly be a staging area, and the Allies will be forced to make their amphibious landing in North Africa if they choose.

The Free French forces didn't have to make an invasion to get to the Agadir area. They could actually move by land from Senegal towards the area. They would be in supply from Dakar. Usually the Free French would embark transports to get them to Italy faster. Otherwise they move on land.

[ncali]

The Free French forces didn't have to make an invasion to get to the Agadir area. They could actually move by land from Senegal towards the area. They would be in supply from Dakar. Usually the Free French would embark transports to get them to Italy faster. Otherwise they move on land.

According to google, it's 2582 km from Dakar to Agadir by current roads. Not sure what the terrain is like or what infrastructure existed in WWII, but I would think this would have been a logistical challenge.

[trulster]

Yeah for sure African infrastructure anno 1940s was not built for supplying large armies on large treks - which is why the historical Allies invaded (and was supplied) by sea. Again, if the Axis manage to progress all the way to Agadir the Allies should be punished by having to invade Africa, not getting a free auto-invasion.

[JimR]

This sounds to me like a 2.2 issue, if there is going to be a 2.2. Meanwhile, if the Axis player knows that FF units spawn in Agadir in November 1942, he can adjust his deployments appropriately. If the Axis player has gotten that far in Morocco, he can park quality units near Agadir to attack the FF after they have spawned but before they have a chance to move.

(If it's worth it for the Axis, in terms of quality units tied down far from Russia.)

[rkr1958]

[Diplomaticus]

I see the Axis plan now. They're just drawing you onto German soil so they can get partisans!

[Crazygunner1]

I see the Axis plan now. They're just drawing you onto German soil so they can get partisans!

And perhaps fight in supply zone 5

[Cybvep]

The Axis is doomed either way. I smell the ultimate victory!