MP question : defeating the elephant man

[soldier]

I'm starting to notice the "herd of elephants" strategy can be both very successful to use and also very difficult to stop in some MP battles. In some recent steamroller paired games, both my opponent and later myself were able to field 5 or 6 of them across the map (with groups of 4 together rampaging across the north), more than the Germans were able to build during the whole war. On occasions I was able to slow up them with massed conscripts (another suspect unit) or destroy them outright by ganging up on them with artillery, massed ISU 122's and a bomber combination. The counter is usually devastating when you confront them and i generally found them almost impossible to destroy providing your opponent bypasses towns or forests and offers some scouting support. I think i preferred the original Panzer General elephant that was also impossible to destroy but had genuine limitations (speed especially but also less ammo, less soft attack, less fuel and probably less initiative, thanks to the PzC defensive bonus).
I wonder what other other MP players think of the elephant, have you ever demolished an elephant herd and should they even exist considering only 90 odd vehicles were ever actually built ?

I guess the same question could apply to the similarly indestructible Jagdtiger but I'm yet to face a pride of these.

[deducter]

Elefants and JagdTigers are good, but hardly wonder weapons. I have faced opponents who loved to field as many of these as they can, and I end up defeating them rather handily. The trick is to avoid armored confrontation, use conscripts/infantry to delay/exhaust ammo, and send your own armor to pick off his support units (artillery mainly). Once those are neutralized, I just bypass the hulking monstrosities, leaving them surrounded with some units so they can't resupply. I don't like to waste time actually killing them, as the point of the game is to take objectives, not kill units.

[soldier]

I do try these strategies but avoiding them means retreating and they exert too much control over an open field to be ignored and left alone. its also very tough to bypass 4 of them working as a team in the open field. Conscripts can annoy them but in the end if they take a vital hex close to a supply town theres almost no removing them. When used to control territory and block enemy moves there pretty "wonderful" in 43 and seem much more effective both in terms of cost and avoiding casualties than there big cat relatives. I do have lots of trouble beating someone who uses them effectively but i can also win quite nicely with them in my arsenal.
I've just started DLC 43 and have set their movement to 3, which i think is pretty fair considering they could only acheive around 8 to 12 kph on open terrain

[soldier]

My current opponent in "steamroller" has bought 8 of them (that i can see).
Theres a long way to go in the battle but i've already lost a packet of tanks and I'm losing ground fast. My troop replacements cannot take it back.
They definitely seem unbalanced to me, how can they be stopped ?

[Eggmanrc]

Air can make an Axis players day pretty miserable, also. The 2m3's usually knock 2 off of them on each bombing run. If the Axis player loads up in the North, he's weak elsewhere. Let them elephants roam up north, I'll concentrate my attack where they ain't.

[soldier]

I dunno Eggman. If I remember correctly. All games we played were won by the axis with the elephant strategy, 2 a piece. Axis 4 to Russia nil.

[Eggmanrc]

Yup. I love the elephant strategy. It seems to force the Soviet response. If the Soviet doesn't buy an even number of 122's, I reinforce the elephants cheaply and go with another unit or 2.

[soldier]

Yup. I love the elephant strategy. It seems to force the Soviet response. If the Soviet doesn't buy an even number of 122's, I reinforce the elephants cheaply and go with another unit or 2.

I'm afraid I'm not a fan. It renders all soviet armour ineffective, (even the ISU's get cut up) and lets the German player essentially push the soviets around with no real right of reply. Worse still it relegates the Tigers and Panthers, (Germany's prime offensive weapons) to a back seat role. Sure you can hide from them, throw conscripts in front of them or try to para drop over them but can you actually fight them ?

I used to like Steamroller verses Steel but it seems unbalanced and out of whack now.

[Eggmanrc]

I agree with everything you just said. I'm toying with another counter mix to make the elephants lack of movement and ammo work against them. My last 2 games I started buying cheap AT's in groups of 2 to 3 and mix in a couple of conscripts for a bit of mobility. Let's say 3 AT's, 3 conscripts will cost roughly 500 PP's. If I can afford to bun up that many units on the limited slots, it works. But, and this is a big but, it hasn't been tested against top flight competition yet. I wanted to test it where if it didn't work, the match would not be in jeopardy.

[Razz1]

I don't like the MP scenario's as they don't use strategy.
Just too much prestige. Players just buy the big tanks. No fun no Balance.

You should try Operation Zitadel for a blanced MP map

[Eggmanrc]

Hmmmm.... You have my attention. I'll take a peek.

[deducter]

Eggmanrc and I are playing a very nice paired game on SAS. He is a very good opponent, very good with the air war, and on one occasion encircled and destroyed some of my units.

Thus far, in my Soviet game, I've avoided actually fighting his Elefants. In the next few turns I'll go ahead and try to destroy them. Let's see how that works out.

[Chris10]

Interesting problem..I dont play MP but I can empathize the situation

Difficult to stop a bunch of Elephant..

I would try by air : Strat Bombers backed by high tier fighters with cheap massive AT guns and AA ground support in case Axis sends fighters...
the Strats get the Elephants out of Ammo/Fuel in no time..then move AT in to avoid refuel/resupply/reinforce..later the Strats and Fighters can serve another purpose...

Obvioulsy a counter strategy has always to keep in mind the overall situation...as well it could be viable to simply recon the elphants and once they run low on fuel (less than 50%) send strats and fighters and units to close in..this way the can get inmobilized within 1 turn...sort of waiting until you can catch them with their pants down ...

[Eggmanrc]

Thanks for the kind words deducter.

The strat bomber strategy sounds interesting chris. I don't go strat bombers so I don't know how they hold up against the AA. Elephants without AA cover are dead meat eventually. Soviet tacticals seem to knock off at least 2-3 strength points per mission fairly regularly and 4 or 5 are not unheard of. With the conscripts available to the Soviet, I'm looking for that sweet unit combination. Tetre just threw an all-out northern strategy at me with what I believe were 5 elephants with at least 1 Tiger and both Panthers doing the heavy lifting. It was pretty impressive.

[deducter]

Tetre just threw an all-out northern strategy at me with what I believe were 5 elephants with at least 1 Tiger and both Panthers doing the heavy lifting. It was pretty impressive.

That means he has almost no armor anywhere else. Focus your attacks in the center/middle, delay with conscripts/some armor in the north. If he tries to move his panthers for exploitation, cut them off with your armor and kill them. Ignore the Elefants until you can breakthrough elsewhere. And I guarantee you can breakthrough elsewhere. In fact, the more a player concentrates Elefant in one region, the better your chances of victory are, because Elefants are so slow and take a long time to transfer to another sector.

[Eggmanrc]

Agreed. In remembering the game, it took me too long to see what was happening. Then when the 5th, 6th elephant showed among the Panthers, I played right into his hands and loaded the north with conscripts and 122's. I thought I could force a stalemate then grind him down if I played tactically well enough. Well..... best laid plans ya' know. I got flat outplayed.

We just cranked up a rematch and are into turn 3 at this point. I get too bullheaded at times and assume I can defeat the center and north simultaneously with good combination play while surrendering the south to the minor river line. Too predictable and just not strategically sound. If I run into an opponent as strong or better tactically, and then lose a few crucial rolls, then it's Katie bar the door.

(this game is WAY too addicting.....)

[Eggmanrc]

chris, I just remembered why I'm not a fan of strategic bombing. With tactical, the opponent has to spend PPs to re-up where fuel and ammo are free. It didn't seem fiscally sound to spend PPs on the bomber and not try to recoup them with usage. It wouldn't take much to convince me otherwise but that's what I think at present.

[deducter]

The games between eggmanrc and myself demonstrate the weakness of the Elefant strategy. Yes, with enough Elefants, the German northern force on SAS is invincible to any Soviet armor attacks. But it can be delayed with conscripts/infantry, and the Germans can be frustrated for a long time. (As an aside: How many turns did it take for you to take two cities in the north with all those Elefants, when all I had were conscripts and 2-3 armor units? About 10? Meanwhile, my armies were advancing at full speed in the south and pulled off two encirclements and snagged all those cities, despite having to face more rough terrain and a river as a barrier.) And even if the Germans take the northernmost VH, those Elefants are now stuck. Trying to transfer them to the middle requires going through all those forests, and not only is it slow, it's risky if the Soviets have infantry there. Trying to use them to attack the northeastern VH runs into the same problem, there's a lot of close terrain there. And the German supply lines will be so stretched in the north that the Soviet player will have ample opportunity for counterattacks into the German rear and to destroy support units like artillery.

This is why I prefer cheaper, faster units like the StuG IIIG and StuG IV for German armor, along with a few Elefants to deal with ISU-122 and some Panthers for exploitation. The StuG IIIG performs well against many Soviet units.

[Kerensky]

The games between eggmanrc and myself demonstrate the weakness of the Elefant strategy. Yes, with enough Elefants, the German northern force on SAS is invincible to any Soviet armor attacks. But it can be delayed with conscripts/infantry, and the Germans can be frustrated for a long time. (As an aside: How many turns did it take for you to take two cities in the north with all those Elefants, when all I had were conscripts and 2-3 armor units? About 10? Meanwhile, my armies were advancing at full speed in the south and pulled off two encirclements and snagged all those cities, despite having to face more rough terrain and a river as a barrier.) And even if the Germans take the northernmost VH, those Elefants are now stuck. Trying to transfer them to the middle requires going through all those forests, and not only is it slow, it's risky if the Soviets have infantry there. Trying to use them to attack the northeastern VH runs into the same problem, there's a lot of close terrain there. And the German supply lines will be so stretched in the north that the Soviet player will have ample opportunity for counterattacks into the German rear and to destroy support units like artillery.

This is why I prefer cheaper, faster units like the StuG IIIG and StuG IV for German armor, along with a few Elefants to deal with ISU-122 and some Panthers for exploitation. The StuG IIIG performs well against many Soviet units.

Saved me the effort of having to play SAS myself to disprove the 'all Elephant = guaranteed win' feeling that was going around. (As if that heavy tank issue hasn't come up before. ) Thanks

[soldier]

I have also been able to take out the southern town and even cross the river (with deception) in a russian counter attack. I took a lot of territory and towns but i couldnt actually snag anymore major flags and ran out of time in the end. In fact in one game the elephants even pushed on in the North and took the eastern corner while still holding the centre. My northern areas were almost completely absent of tanks in those games, a very odd looking map. By then I had lost 4 Russian games while winning all my German battles and decided I'd had enough of the elephants, ISU 122's and conscripts in SAS. I have not played it since. I still think there is something odd about the battle and would prefer to see less of these rare tank hunters in such prominent offensive roles.
but each to there own i guess