Charge and shifting

[bahdahbum]

- Can a large unit retract to " ordre profond" when charging ?

- Can a unit charge and shfit one base ?

- Can a unit charge and shift one base interpenetrating sideway another unit of the same division ( complex move )

Or the only way to try to charge an ennemy unit is to wheel if you are not really in front ?

the case we had was a large unit that could not charge an ennemy unit due to the fact that a friendly unit was in the way ( one base width ) , so it could not wheel ...but could move ( simple move - towards an ennemy by shifting but had to interpenatrate another friendly unit ( sideways ) . So I argued that in order to charge you had either to go straight forward or wheel , my opponent argued that as shifting is a simple move he could do it ......

[Blathergut]

-p. 28: cannot make a formation change
-see p. 38 for slide/shifts...not into enemy

-i believe so...wheel must be first...I don't see why you couldn't wheel during an interpenetration

[bahdahbum]

slide or shift into a friendly unit during the charge ( same division ) it was never question of a ennemy unit
I never said it could not wheel and make an interpenetration .

only can it shift and charge interpenetrating a friendly unit in order to be in front of an ennemy unit . The shifting being done isideways n a friendly unit that is just adjacent, base to base with the charging unit that cannot wheel due to a friendly unit in the way and not enough space to go trough that unit

[Blathergut]

I would think (but am not author/expert...just learning it all) that since a charge takes you into an enemy unit you would not be able to shift. Maybe others will voice their ideas on it here.

I was just listing what moves a unit could do when mentioning the wheeling.

[panda2]

P.38 right hand column 3rd bullet, allows a slide of up to 1 base width as a simple move if:

"The unit makes a forwards move which starts or ends with 6MU of the enemy and the slide is only to avoid friends and is only by the minimum necessary. The move cannot start but may end within 2MU of the enemy."

This doesn't seem to exclude a move that ends in contact with the enemy. The restrictions on assaults only seem to be that you must be able to reach the target with a normal advance (which would of course be a forward move); that you can't change formation; and you can only wheel at the begining of the move within certain limits (pp.28-29). There is nothing I can see that expressly excludes a slide during the assault move. I have to conclude that(slightly surprisingly to me at least) you can slide to avoid friends in an assault move within the limits set out on p.38.

I've not had time to think whether this would allow any gamey exploits, but it is worth noting that the same passage on p.38 would also seem to allow slides during countercharges or intercepts unless there is something in the rules governing them that expressly excludes a slide.

Andy D

[Blathergut]

author confirmation??

[bahdahbum]

Yes an author appreciation would be very usefull ...because if you may shift while charging...why wheel ?

[terrys]

- Can a large unit retract to " ordre profond" when charging ?

- Can a unit charge and shfit one base ?

- Can a unit charge and shift one base interpenetrating sideway another unit of the same division ( complex move )

Or the only way to try to charge an ennemy unit is to wheel if you are not really in front ?

> A unit cannot contract when making an assault move. A contract counts as "changing formation"
> A charging unit cannot shift by a base. A shift is part of a 'normal' move. Making an assault is a major undertaking, and should be planned in advance.
> No (as above).
> If the enemy is not directly in front then the only way to contact them is to wheel.

We want to make sure that players plan their assaults, with no sneaky tactics. (like hiding the assualting unit behind another then sliding past them when charging.) You can assault through other units of the same division, or artillery and skirmishers (with a CMT), but we don't want to encourage players to mix units of different divisions without some disadvantage.

[deadtorius]

Since were on about charge restrictions, in our last game the Froggies declared an assault on one of my units. I was kind enough to point out that they were going to pass within the 2 MU zone of death of 2 of my infantry units, and I was going to shoot them up on the way in. One of those units happened to be veteran grenadiers. The French claimed that they only had to move about 7 MU straight ahead to contact my troops so they could wheel to get out of my range on the way in, since they had 3 extra MU of movement to make said wheels.
I thought you could only wheel toward an enemy, not start off by wheeling away then wheel back again to avoid extra shooting.
The French decided not to assault since we couldn't agree on whether it was correct to wheel out like that or not.

Could the French have pulled a gamey move like that to try and avoid extra shooting?

[panda2]

The restrictions on wheels in assault moves on p.29 are pretty strict and certainly don't allow you to wheel one way, move, then wheel the other way to avoid fire, since "All wheeling must be completed at the start of the assault move before any 'straight ahead' movement is made.". However, this in itself would prevent a double wheel before any straight ahead move is made, which I expect is what you are talking about here.

Nevertheless, I think the other restrictions on wheeling during assaults would rule this out, in most, if not all circumstances. In particular, it is difficult to see how both wheels could satisfy the conditions that "A unit must wheel towards their target..." and "They must not wheel to place less of their target to their front...". If these conditions are satisfied for a wheel in one direction it seems very unlikely to me that they could be satisfied for a subsequent wheel in the opposite direction. If, however, a unit can make a single wheel in one direction that meets these restrictions and which results in it avoiding the close range fire zone on one or more units this seems fine.

Andy D

[terrys]

The restriction on wheeling before moving, and only being allowed to wheel towards your target are there so that players can't pick on a weeker target while avoiding the firing zones of units they don't wish to fight. The men making the charge wouldn't be able to judge whether or not they would pass within this (somewhat false) close range firing zone.

[deadtorius]

I had thought you have to go straight in, risking the gauntlet, thanks Terry. Gotta keep an eye on those Froggies, they are slippery slimy types

[Blathergut]

I think that all my unit did was wheel a bit to the right so that we approached on an angle instead of going straight ahead and into the target and a corner sticking out in front of the jaegers. I think the move was legal. It was pretty much like example A on page 29. If I went straight ahead, like A, part of my unit was sticking out and vulnerable to shooting. If I wheeled, as A does, it kept me out of range. Was I wrong in this?

Or are you saying a wheel is only possible if needed to contact target and otherwise not? But then why can A, in the example on page 29, wheel?

[terrys]

I think that all my unit did was wheel a bit to the right so that we approached on an angle instead of going straight ahead and into the target and a corner sticking out in front of the jaegers. I think the move was legal. It was pretty much like example A on page 29. If I went straight ahead, like A, part of my unit was sticking out and vulnerable to shooting. If I wheeled, as A does, it kept me out of range. Was I wrong in this?

Or are you saying a wheel is only possible if needed to contact target and otherwise not? But then why can A, in the example on page 29, wheel?

The amount of wheel permitted during a charge is exactly as defined on page 29.
The restriction which (I think) applies in this case is:
"They may not wheel to place less of their target to their front or past the point at which the centre of the targets front edge is directly ahead of the centre of its own unit"
You can wheel towards the centre of the target but not past it. (unit 'A' in the diagram).

[deadtorius]

it all has to do with where your unit center starts in relation to my units center, you can't wheel your center line past my center line, just so you can try to scoot by some defensive fire. In our case I don't think you could have wheeled as far as you wanted since your center would have gone beyond the edges of my unit that was the target.