Germans vs. italians in the core

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nikivdd
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by nikivdd »

We are lacking some units i suppose. I gonna add a couple units (if they are not present already) in my bought AK copy :)

Re.2001,2002,2003,2005. Bridge engineer, paratrooper, Fiat CR.25, CANT Z.1007bis, 75mm SPAD, 90mm SPAT, L3/33, L3/35, L3/35 flammpanzer, Canca FC.20, Breda BA.88, G.50 Freccia, 210mm 210/25, 90/53 M41C AT-AA
and a whole range of Semoventes.

Image

I'm just trying to say, if the so called lack of italian units is a reason not to invest in italian core units, i'm sure those will help. I'm actually eager to play this campaign with italian units only, with the inclusion of the custom units.
IMO, it can be as fun to play with a different nation or to play with a core not dominated by german units.
Rudankort
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Rudankort »

deducter
I've reread your posts in this topic, and you make a lot of valid statements, but I fail to understand what point you are trying to make, apart from making per-nation slots a feature in the editor. ;)
Zhivago
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Zhivago »

Rudankort wrote:Guys, please try to avoid any personal attacks on this forum. I deleted and edited some of the posts above. Thanks for understanding.
Hmmm....all of my posts disappeared. I must be the bad guy. I'll go sit in the corner.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Rudankort »

Zhivago wrote:Hmmm....all of my posts disappeared. I must be the bad guy. I'll go sit in the corner.
Oh, not at all. I carefully preserved two posts from you which made constructive contribution to this discussion. ;)
deducter
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by deducter »

Rudankort wrote:deducter
I've reread your posts in this topic, and you make a lot of valid statements, but I fail to understand what point you are trying to make, apart from making per-nation slots a feature in the editor. ;)
Point 1, regarding the topic at hand: Some buffs/tweaking of the Italian units in the equipment file would be a quick and simple way to encourage the use of more of them. The best solution is probably just to reduce the cost for a lot of units (like the tanks especially).

Point 2 is a much broader, philosophical concept that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and that's probably why I'm failing to explain things. I'm trying to describe my philosophy on what "skill" is and how it applies to the difficulty of the game. It seems that there are meant to be two components to "skill" in this game: one is tactical, in other words, how you use the units you are given, and the other is strategic, in other words, what units you buy. This is a fundamental design philosophy. Do you want tactics to be the most important component of success (say, Dark Souls) or do you want equipment to be the most important component (say, Diablo III)? Or perhaps, to succeed on the higher difficulty levels, you need to be good at both?

The modeling of battlefield tactics between two armies with comparable equipment in this game is really, really good, and there's a lot of subtleties involved, and I'm not even close to being perfect at it. There's almost always room for improvement for a player in that area. However, once you get to a certain level of "equipment," battlefield tactics become irrelevant. The easiest way to beat the the single player game is just to get to the best equipment. You can make the game hard on Colonel if you give a player a terrible core, and you can make the game a breeze on FM if you give the player the best possible core. And a quality core is not hard to get. That would be fine if it were really hard to get the best equipment, or if you could only afford limited quantities of it, but in practice, it's easy for advanced players to afford only the best equipment on all difficulty levels (it takes a bit longer on Rommel setting, but it's still not hard).

In theory, prestige is supposed to regulate what equipment the player can get. In MP, this works out wonderfully. The player has to choose between a larger core of weaker, but cheaper, units, or a smaller core of super-strong units. In SP, getting the super strong units is always the best choice. Why is this? Because the top-end equipment, despite costing more initially, tends to save prestige in the long run. A Tiger I is unequivocally better than a StuG IIIG in SP, not only in combat stats but also cost, because the Tiger I rarely takes damage, and requires fewer reinforcements. Buy any tanks other than Tigers/Panthers in 1943 is a sub-optimal choice. For MP, this is not true, given the very limited prestige available. You can get a Tiger I or two StuG IIIGs. I personally prefer the StuG IIIGs, but some players might want the Tiger I, and that's an interesting choice there. So in MP, both tactical and strategic skill matters for every single game, whereas in SP (unless you play on Manstein), once you get enough equipment, there's no skill involved, tactical or strategic. And then you have players complaining that the game is too easy on FM, which it is if you have a very powerful core.

I want the game to be really, really easy on Colonel. The player should be allowed to roll over everything with Tigers on Colonel. But I also want the game to be challenging on FM, to require thought, where battlefield and strategic skill are both integral to success. This is currently not the case. That same player can still get all Tigers on FM, and can still roll everything everything with that core. The quality of the core trumps the difficulty levels when it comes to making this game "hard," to the point where the best way to make the game harder is either playing on Manstein or modifying the equipment file yourself. I think this game would have better replayability if the different difficulty settings are more linear. The gulf between Manstein and anything else is huge. The gulf between Colonel and FM is small.

On a side note:

If you make a certain unit the best in every way, then that eliminates choice. The best way to introduce choice is by having each unit be distinct. This is why I also feel editing the equipment file to make Italians desirable or very cheap, as per Kerensky's suggestion, is the best way to balance things in the short term. As an example, this is how I adjusted the Panzer IVG and the Tiger I in GC43 (there's also an experience upgrade penalty, so at most the player can have a 1-star Tiger I at the start of GC43, but he can have 4-star Panzer IVGs no problem):
Panzer IVG cost = 408 ammo = 8 fuel = 43 move = 5 INI = 9 SA = 8 HA = 16 GD = 14 AD = 12 CD = 2
Tiger I cost = 1353 ammo = 4 fuel = 15 move = 5 INI = 11 SA = 9 HA = 19 GD = 22 AD = 16 CD = 4

Is it obvious which tank is better? Sure, the Tiger I is better in combat, but it has very limited fuel and ammo (to simulate mechanic troubles and how this tank tended to stall out when attacking), and it's 4x as expensive as a Panzer IVG. Four overstrength points on a Panzer IVG is still cheaper than one overstrength point on a Tiger I. And the Panzer IVG has much more ammo/fuel, and works almost as well on soft targets, plus it's plenty effective against most Russian tanks, especially if you back the Panzer IVG with artillery. My changes wouldn't be possible without the ease of modding (the gamerules.pzdat and equipment.pzdat), so it's awesome to have more modding options.

If this is still confusing, and if you still want my opinion, I can elaborate on some some of these points further.

PS Is it possible to get replays for games, MP matches in particular?
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Kerensky »

You know there was a game that tried to force some outrageous restrictions on the player's CORE and leader composition. I think it was called Panzer General 3D Assault. Yea, just food for thought.
Zhivago
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Zhivago »

Rudankort wrote:
Zhivago wrote:Hmmm....all of my posts disappeared. I must be the bad guy. I'll go sit in the corner.
Oh, not at all. I carefully preserved two posts from you which made constructive contribution to this discussion. ;)
I personally thought all of my posts were constructive, but alas, I will settle for the two. You just need to implement the changes I suggested, and life will be great.

Two other fixes--you need to update/upgrade the "current unit" selector icon--it should be red or green or some other visible color rather than white. I know someone around here created a custom fix, but it would be nice if the fix was a standard game update. Also, victory hexes need to be more clearly marked. Perhaps a red border or something? It sometimes hard to distinguish victory and non-victory hexes.
Zhivago
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Zhivago »

Kerensky wrote:You know there was a game that tried to force some outrageous restrictions on the player's CORE and leader composition. I think it was called Panzer General 3D Assault. Yea, just food for thought.
Amen +1
deducter
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by deducter »

I don't think anyone is suggesting outrageous restrictions here. If you are worried that is a slippery slope, that once you start to impose some restrictions, then inevitably the game will degenerate into a purely "historical" core, I don't think that's something to worry about. No one who plays this game wants something like that. There are plenty of games where you are given your starting units, and that's it (Unity of Command, for instance). I tend to find those games have much less replay value.

What I want to discuss is strategic choices here.

Consider these choices:

1)3 Tiger Is

2)6 Panzer IVH

Which choice is better? It's not necessarily obvious. Add this third choice:

3)6 Tiger Is

Of course choice 3 is the best, there's no question, there's no debate. No one is saying that choice 2) and 3) should be comparable in combat power. But if choice 3) is always the best, why bother having or choice 2) anymore? Because some moronic players like myself enjoy masochism? In fact, why not just give the player all Tigers then?

If I went around advocating, instead, that the player's core should always be allowed the best possible equipment, with maximum experience, on any difficulty setting, would this be bad? Why would this be bad then, if that's the optimal way to play?
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Ballacraine »

nikivdd wrote:We are lacking some units i suppose. I gonna add a couple units (if they are not present already) in my bought AK copy :)

Re.2001,2002,2003,2005. Bridge engineer, paratrooper, Fiat CR.25, CANT Z.1007bis, 75mm SPAD, 90mm SPAT, L3/33, L3/35, L3/35 flammpanzer, Canca FC.20, Breda BA.88, G.50 Freccia, 210mm 210/25, 90/53 M41C AT-AA
and a whole range of Semoventes.

Image

I'm just trying to say, if the so called lack of italian units is a reason not to invest in italian core units, i'm sure those will help. I'm actually eager to play this campaign with italian units only, with the inclusion of the custom units.
IMO, it can be as fun to play with a different nation or to play with a core not dominated by german units.
That certainly gets my vote. :)

Balla. 8)
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Rudankort »

OK, I'm already sounding like I'm trying to persuade everybody else that I need to do more work, so I'm not going to argue any more. :wink: But I still would like to hear some arguments from "all restrictions are bad" crowd. It's just... I don't get it guys.

Why it is ok to play campaigns for germans, soviets, britains, americans... italians... But it is not ok to play a "parallel" campaign for both germans and italians at the same time, when that's what Africa theatre historically was?

Why it is fine to play "Bersaglieri and the Bear" as italians or "Battle of the Bzura" for polish, but having italians in AK is "forcing crappy units into your core"?

Why nobody compalins about 8 core italians in "Reconnaissance in Force" (it is half of the core), but in later scenarios, where you have more core slots, 8 italians suddenly become a problem?

In the course of the development all AK scenarios were tested in single scenario mode. Even late ones have some italian units. Thus, I open Road to India and I see 8 italian units there. In British India there are 7. This is what the player will get if he plays this scenario standalone. But in campaign mode, all of a sudden, this becomes an outrages restriction? Seriously... I don't get it. Even if italians use up more prestige to maintain, because of higher losses - I already see that prestige is beginning to pile up in some of the games going on here. Italians could even be considered a prestige sink. They would grow up, so from time to time you would be getting Medals for Valour instead of Iron Crosses. From time to time you would be getting folks with italian names instead of german ones. This will ruin the game? How so?

OK, I'm off to bed. Thanks in advance for enlightening me. ;)
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Kerensky »

Rudankort wrote:Why it is ok to play campaigns for germans, soviets, britains, americans... italians... But it is not ok to play a "parallel" campaign for both germans and italians at the same time, when that's what Africa theatre historically was?

Why it is fine to play "Bersaglieri and the Bear" as italians or "Battle of the Bzura" for polish, but having italians in AK is "forcing crappy units into your core"?

Why nobody compalins about 8 core italians in "Reconnaissance in Force" (it is half of the core), but in later scenarios, where you have more core slots, 8 italians suddenly become a problem?
If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by El_Condoro »

Rudankort wrote:Why nobody compalins about 8 core italians in "Reconnaissance in Force" (it is half of the core), but in later scenarios, where you have more core slots, 8 italians suddenly become a problem?
I can answer that one from personal experience: because there are more mines and forts in later scenarios that require German pioneres to remove. I disbanded almost my whole core in scenario 2 and replaced it with one made up of pioneres, artillery, Pz IVs and a couple of recons. Later I bought German Bf109s, too. Why? Because I wanted to play the scenarios out and see how they played not bang my head against a wall using sub-standard equipment (Italian units). The composition has been great for all scenarios so far. Some will say it's not kosher but I like the choice of how to compose my core.

To my simple way of thinking, the problem comes from trying to combine a German and Italian core. It's more work but a parallel campaign (chosen from the campaign screen, of course) - one with a German core, one with an Italian core - would work best. The Italians would have more slots and worse equipment, the Germans would have less slots and superior equipment. Seems 'historical' to me.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by uran21 »

El_Condoro wrote:I can answer that one from personal experience: because there are more mines and forts in later scenarios that require German pioneres to remove. I disbanded almost my whole core in scenario 2 and replaced it with one made up of pioneres, artillery, Pz IVs and a couple of recons.
Specifically for scenario 2 you have all auxiliary assets needed to breach trough forts and even came back with them to try some frontal assaults and earning prestige prize while your core fights behind the line. No upgrade to Pioniere is needed for that scenario. You will need them in 7th scenario...but I tested that one with only one Pioniere and it works for me.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Chris10 »

Kerensky wrote: If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
If you play a RTS you only always produce the one and only mightiest dreadnought unit ?...no you dont...and very often you dont do that cause you are not allowed to have more than X of them...how da heck are the covettes appealing ?..well..they probably are not but you cant have 30 dreadnoughts cause there is not enoguh unit slots and since they occupy 5 slots per dreadnought you have to fill your fleet with corvettes,destroyers,cruisers and stuff..so what ?..it assures diversity and battles the boredom of repetitive exploit..in literally all games there is a framework settled by the developers and for good reason

Why implementing the italian units anyway if they get scrapped on 3rd scenario ?..Why making a game resided in the African Campaign when it does not bring along at least some historical consistency as a basic setting ?...would be better to make a total fiction fantasy game in the first place and skip all this WWII nonsense then... :P

For me it feels as if people oppose for the sake of opposing... we talked about this to be optional...moddable...amendable...adjustable...changable...and still.... you stiffly oppose negating and ingnoring all good reasons...I think I made some fair points so did Deducter, obvioulsy better cause he is a native speaker :lol: ...same goes for Rudankort...I think he tends towards nation core slots cause there are multiple and very good reasons ...so factual there is little new which could be added except from sleeping over it and then...decision time :wink:
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Zhivago »

chris10 wrote:
Kerensky wrote: If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
If you play a RTS you only always produce the one and only mightiest dreadnought unit ?...no you dont...and very often you dont do that cause you are not allowed to have more than X of them...how da heck are the covettes appealing ?..well..they probably are not but you cant have 30 dreadnoughts cause there is not enoguh unit slots and since they occupy 5 slots per dreadnought you have to fill your fleet with corvettes,destroyers,cruisers and stuff..so what ?..it assures diversity and battles the boredom of repetitive exploit..in literally all games there is a framework settled by the developers and for good reason

Why implementing the italian units anyway if they get scrapped on 3rd scenario ?..Why making a game resided in the African Campaign when it does not bring along at least some historical consistency as a basic setting ?...would be better to make a total fiction fantasy game in the first place and skip all this WWII nonsense then... :P

For me it feels as if people oppose for the sake of opposing... we talked about this to be optional...moddable...amendable...adjustable...changable...and still.... you stiffly oppose negating and ingnoring all good reasons...I think I made some fair points so did Deducter, obvioulsy better cause he is a native speaker :lol: ...same goes for Rudankort...I think he tends towards nation core slots cause there are multiple and very good reasons ...so factual there is little new which could be added except from sleeping over it and then...decision time :wink:
Go read the huge forum topic from earlier this year--I just quoted you in it, so it is in the regular main forum. Read why it is nearly impossible to argue for "historical accuracy" in this game.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by VPaulus »

Kerensky wrote:
Rudankort wrote:Why it is ok to play campaigns for germans, soviets, britains, americans... italians... But it is not ok to play a "parallel" campaign for both germans and italians at the same time, when that's what Africa theatre historically was?

Why it is fine to play "Bersaglieri and the Bear" as italians or "Battle of the Bzura" for polish, but having italians in AK is "forcing crappy units into your core"?

Why nobody compalins about 8 core italians in "Reconnaissance in Force" (it is half of the core), but in later scenarios, where you have more core slots, 8 italians suddenly become a problem?
If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
And there's another reason besides that.
People in general like to play more with Germans. German militaria always attracted more people than any other country.
Even if you buff the Italian units to the Germans, people will always tend to use more the Germans.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Rudankort »

Kerensky wrote:If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
When I go to a steak house, I usually order a salad from the salad menu (that must be italians), and a steak from the steak menu (I guess that is germans). But I never order two steaks. How does this help us in our discussion? Yeah... it does not. That's the problem with analogies.
El_Condoro wrote:I can answer that one from personal experience: because there are more mines and forts in later scenarios that require German pioneres to remove. I disbanded almost my whole core in scenario 2 and replaced it with one made up of pioneres, artillery, Pz IVs and a couple of recons. Later I bought German Bf109s, too. Why? Because I wanted to play the scenarios out and see how they played not bang my head against a wall using sub-standard equipment (Italian units). The composition has been great for all scenarios so far. Some will say it's not kosher but I like the choice of how to compose my core.
Let us separate the concept from specific implementation. Scenarios can be tweaked, and in fact, in beta 2 the first scenarios are already made much easier. In fact, we are now getting complaints that they are too easy. Does this mean, now you are ok with the concept of italians in the core?
Kerensky wrote:To my simple way of thinking, the problem comes from trying to combine a German and Italian core. It's more work but a parallel campaign (chosen from the campaign screen, of course) - one with a German core, one with an Italian core - would work best. The Italians would have more slots and worse equipment, the Germans would have less slots and superior equipment. Seems 'historical' to me.
So you are saying that playing a big core of crappy italians is better than playing a reasonably-sized mix where both nations can exploit their strong points? Can you elaborate why?
VPaulus wrote:People in general like to play more with Germans. German militaria always attracted more people than any other country.
Even if you buff the Italian units to the Germans, people will always tend to use more the Germans.
This is true, but what does this give us? Same argument could be used to reason that we don't need to create any allied campaigns at all.
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by Zhivago »

Rudankort wrote:
Kerensky wrote:If there's steak on the menu, are you going to order the tofu salad?
When I go to a steak house, I usually order a salad from the salad menu (that must be italians), and a steak from the steak menu (I guess that is germans). But I never order two steaks. How does this help us in our discussion? Yeah... it does not. That's the problem with analogies.
El_Condoro wrote:I can answer that one from personal experience: because there are more mines and forts in later scenarios that require German pioneres to remove. I disbanded almost my whole core in scenario 2 and replaced it with one made up of pioneres, artillery, Pz IVs and a couple of recons. Later I bought German Bf109s, too. Why? Because I wanted to play the scenarios out and see how they played not bang my head against a wall using sub-standard equipment (Italian units). The composition has been great for all scenarios so far. Some will say it's not kosher but I like the choice of how to compose my core.
Let us separate the concept from specific implementation. Scenarios can be tweaked, and in fact, in beta 2 the first scenarios are already made much easier. In fact, we are now getting complaints that they are too easy. Does this mean, now you are ok with the concept of italians in the core?
Kerensky wrote:To my simple way of thinking, the problem comes from trying to combine a German and Italian core. It's more work but a parallel campaign (chosen from the campaign screen, of course) - one with a German core, one with an Italian core - would work best. The Italians would have more slots and worse equipment, the Germans would have less slots and superior equipment. Seems 'historical' to me.
So you are saying that playing a big core of crappy italians is better than playing a reasonably-sized mix where both nations can exploit their strong points? Can you elaborate why?
VPaulus wrote:People in general like to play more with Germans. German militaria always attracted more people than any other country.
Even if you buff the Italian units to the Germans, people will always tend to use more the Germans.
This is true, but what does this give us? Same argument could be used to reason that we don't need to create any allied campaigns at all.
I like to keep a couple of Italian units around in my core--they are fantastic cooks for my German troops! :)
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Re: Germans vs. italians in the core

Post by nikivdd »

This is not an attempt to advertise but i would like to share a few comments from my German GTPG v2.0 testers.
-
The slovakian units do much better than anticipated and were a great help in taking victory hexes
-
Unfortunately i lost one of my core italian planes, fortunately i still have two
-
Great idea to add some hungarian tanks to the core, i wonder how they will perform in the USSR
-
Romanian reinforcements? lol but they managed to deal with several Yug partisans
I know, my mod is not historical accurat, but fun comes at the first place. All axis minor core units are upgradable with units of its own nation already and v1.06 makes that even better.
All i want to prove here is that i am one of the supporters to have a mixed core. On topic, it is just more fun and challenging to play the AK scenario's with such a core.
Will i manage to get a DV every time? Probably not, but that is not necessary. I'm not going to purchase AK only to play with a 100% german core just to reach the last scenario as quickly as possible.
This is the beauty of Panzer Corps, the possibility to try out different core compositions and different tactics and a mixed core definitely adds up to the replay value.
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