Germans vs. italians in the core

[Rudankort]

Hello All!

In beta 1 we have seen many times that people were disbanding their italian units in the core and replaced them german ones, and while in beta 2 italians have better upgrade options, this still may not be enough to change this trend. Please share your opinion on this issue in this topic:
- Is this situation ok, or shall be addressed in some way?
- If it is not fine, how can we address it?

One obvious idea is to limit the number of german units in the core - this would be historical and add a certain flavour to AK campaign, but might make the game too difficult and seem too constraining to some players. What do you guys think? Would it be a good idea or not? Any other suggestions are also welcome.

Thx!

[Ballacraine]

I think there should be the flexibility to play it as you wish, but I think it is good to encourage an historical force composition.

Perhaps limiting the number of core German units may be a good way to do this.
I do find it odd though in the opening scenario that the Stuka & one of the 88mm units are auxiliary whilst there are many Italian core units.

Balla. :0)

[Xitax]

One way to fix this is to limit the core and add Italian aux units to each scenario, that way you feel like you are playing the Germans with Italian support, the composition of which you don't really control.

[Rudankort]

One way to fix this is to limit the core and add Italian aux units to each scenario, that way you feel like you are playing the Germans with Italian support, the composition of which you don't really control.

Many people do not like aux units and use them mostly as cannon fodder. It is much more interesting to have them in your core, bring them up, upgrade as you see fit, gain experience, medals and heroes (in beta 2 Italians have got their own heroes and medals). This is exactly the reason why multi-nation core was introduced for Africa. The only question is, how to do this right.

[Kerensky]

I'm definitely one of those who doesn't like AUX units. They become fodder, and dealing with too many of them in too many scenarios is nothing short of annoying. AUX units play a much better role as mission special units.

Best way to promote diversity is to give Italians units a reason to bought. I'd have to take a look at the stats and availability dates of the new units, but I'm sure at least a few of them can be made useful without bending history too much. For example, the saharan italian infantry might have a movement speed of 4. The Sahriana might have 10 movement. P26/40 might have extremely large fuel and ammo reserves, making it good for long treks across the desert.

[deducter]

As much as I like Kerensky's suggestion, I'm not sure whether it's possible in this situation to do so without bending history too much. The Italian supply situation was not better than the Germans, and giving the Italians units on par with the Germans will not please the historical accuracy people much either. Fast infantry sounds interesting, but really, the Italian infantry was almost all of poor quality. After all, the first Italian attack into Egypt was with an Army-sized unit of mostly foot-marching infantry, and they were destroyed by a single armored division of the British. Frankly the German equipment is just so much better than the Italian that I don't see how to bend the equipment file sufficiently, and I have some experience in changing equipment files.

I don't like AUX units either, unless there were some way to implement it so that players don't just throw them away, like if getting one destroyed reduces the total prestige gained at the end of the scenario. I guess this is possible with complicated triggers, but this does not seem worth the effort.

I think the best solution is to implement core size limitation on the Germans and Italians with an option to turn it off at the start of the campaign. So you'd have say in scenario one 20 total unit slots, 10 for Germans and 10 for Italians. If you turn off that option, it just defaults to 20 total unit slots, of whatever German/Italian composition you want. Call it a "command limit" or "supply limit" or something else. I don't think too many players will object to Africa having new rules and especially for having Italian troops in your core, especially since there's an option to turn it off. This would also be a great tool for modders.

[Kerensky]

Actually an even better idea, make some Italian units like conscripts. Sure they're bad units, but who says they can't be numerous. I wouldn't mind trying out a few 15 strength italian infantry and light tanks. Might even want to elite them up and get my own 20 strength units.

[deducter]

Actually an even better idea, make some Italian units like conscripts. Sure they're bad units, but who says they can't be numerous. I wouldn't mind trying out a few 15 strength italian infantry and light tanks. Might even want to elite them up and get my own 20 strength units.

This is certainly an interesting idea, it could work potentially. That extra 5 strength though makes a HUGE difference, although you do know those Italians have almost no upgrade potential. Still, it would require much testing. And could be very problematic for whatever new MP maps there may be.

[Chris10]

For the campaign play and for the sake of at least some historical consistency I would think of adding another function which allows to set max unit number of each or any participating nation...
Example AK first scn (just started playing it) Axis Side 21 core slots > 15 Italian which then defaults to Germany max core = 6
Whereas auxiliary should not be included in this...
This function will not only assure a somewhat coherent army composition for the main belligerent during the campaign/scenario but as well allows altering with the editor and additionally can be of great use for custom scenarios and campaigns with the goal of great historical accuracy.

[Kerensky]

Forcing bad units on players not a fun game play mechanic, history or no history.
Make them useful, want to be purchased, and deserving of a core slot, or else expect everyone to simply disband them for units that aren't a waste of a core slot.

If you forced me to have X% of my core be Italian units, I'd buy the cheapest fodder I can to fill those spots (infantry) and use my prestige to buy top tier German equipment and no German infantry.

[Carius]

Perhaps more diverse units for the Italians would help in making them more attractive. Adding the Italian paratroops, motorcycle recon, gun porters, and some German lend lease equipment could be a start. Also making the 90mm and Semovente self propelled guns, dual purpose would be a good step in the right direction.

[El_Condoro]

Just to throw my ideas into the mix; I like auxiliary units and don't mind that they may be used as cannon fodder - they are the best way to get the historical units into the scenarios. If we want less German units on the map just restrict the core size and/or prestige for a scenario. In practice, as Kerensky has said, if lower quality units are forced on the player's core they become cannon fodder, anyway. It would be like having two cores - a good one and a also-ran poorer one. Just allow the player to buy what he wants and use auxiliaries, prestige settings and core slots to restrict how many he can put in the field and to gain some historical accuracy..

[Zhivago]

Maybe making Italian units 1/2 the cost (or less) than comparable German units would make me consider using Italian units more. However, the German units are already outgunned (in my opinion) when facing UK troops that have two stars, or 15 strength. It is hard enough to win with an all-German core than to try and do it with less useful/powerful Italian units.

[deducter]

I certainly don't see any core limitation mechanic as forcing bad units on a player. If you don't want the "crappy" Italian units, why even bother buying infantry to fill out their core slots anyway?

A lot of how the gameplay would be affected depends a lot on how the core limitation is implemented. If it's 15 German and 5 Italian, sure, just ignore your Italian core slots, but if it's the reverse, players would spend prestige on decent Italian units. Furthermore, the tuning of the scenarios may be such that if all you buy for your Italian units are just their low quality infantry infantry, you cannot get DV. Yes, there are other ways to game this potentially, after all, the Italian artillery, for instance, is just like German artillery, so players will just use artillery to fill out their Italian core slots, but that's not necessarily a big deal considering the Italians don't really get any decent mobile artillery, which the German player may want to upgrade to in the future. Also, any sort of core limitation mechanic would have an option to turn it off, so this way it would please all players. I can't possibly see why anyone would object to this being an option you can click on or off.

The problem is that a lot of the scenarios would have to be massively redesigned, to compensate for a weaker core of mostly Italian units. No more 15-strength 2-star Matilda IIs, for instance.

With this say, given the rather limited time before Afrika Corps is released though, editing the equipment file is probably the most practical option at this point to promote the use of Italian units. I do agree that all units should have some use in the ideal case. I like the idea of redesigning Italian units to be useful, but is it possible to make all of them useful? The idea of giving some of them 15 strength is plausible. The planes and tanks would be problematic to balance especially when 1943 rolls around when historically the Italians are more or less out of the war by that point.

[Chris10]

Forcing bad units on players not a fun game play mechanic, history or no history.
Make them useful, want to be purchased, and deserving of a core slot, or else expect everyone to simply disband them for units that aren't a waste of a core slot.

Personally I would not mind..absolute freedom always makes humans exploit mechanics the way they are not meant to be
but nerfing/raising stats may do the trick too (although only to certain extend)...still would love to have the ability to set a max or min unit number of nation x...simply to keep this nation represented...even with all these bad units as you call them (they are only bad units cause you know all units and that there are better german ones and btw they knew that back then too thats why Italian Tanks have been used in 2nd line for example)..the challenge is to deal with it. This especially holds true as with the current setting the whole AK thing will end up always with an exclusively german core or otherwise you have to raise stats of italian units to combat values beyond german units which surely will lead to more discussion than simply telling player he has to have at least 8 or 10 or whatever Italian Units with his core...I dont see whats bad about it..It could be disabled anyway

If you forced me to have X% of my core be Italian units, I'd buy the cheapest fodder I can to fill those spots (infantry) and use my prestige to buy top tier German equipment and no German infantry.

I have my doubts that on a high difficulty and with the right prestige settings this strategy could work out as you always would be short of units and prestige and/or experienced troops who can take a punch without being destroyed in 2-3 attacks in a row..so you would have to resort to build up your italian core to be an experienced one in order to survive...It could even encourage the need of developing new strategys and approaches as the Italian Units are somewhat weaker

In anyway the Italian Units should be the backbone of the core,at least up to 1943, as the German AK was aprox 23.000 men whereas the main force was Italian with 60.000+ men ..if the Axis North African Army would have been exclusively German Units with most current equipment they probably have blown the Brits back over the Suez Canal by mid 1942 but they were not...

I stand by my point...

[El_Condoro]

The reason they were out of the war, apart from general war-weariness, was that Sicily had been taken and the mainland threatened; they surrendered just before Avalanche/Salerno commenced. If the Germans were rolling through Egypt on their way to Arabia perhaps they would stick around longer, beyond 1943.

[zappel]

If we want less German units on the map just restrict the core size and/or prestige for a scenario. In practice, as Kerensky has said, if lower quality units are forced on the player's core they become cannon fodder, anyway. It would be like having two cores - a good one and a also-ran poorer one. Just allow the player to buy what he wants and use auxiliaries, prestige settings and core slots to restrict how many he can put in the field and to gain some historical accuracy..

I agree: I'm playing the third scenario and started to sell italian units to buy german units. Using a limit for german core units makes it definitly harder to win a scenario. Eventually an option in the game-settings can be used to limit the number of german core-units. Another way could be the difficulty-level: a higher level decreases the maximum number of german core-units.

[deducter]

The reason they were out of the war, apart from general war-weariness, was that Sicily had been taken and the mainland threatened; they surrendered just before Avalanche/Salerno commenced. If the Germans were rolling through Egypt on their way to Arabia perhaps they would stick around longer, beyond 1943.

Right, I just mean how would you balance it after 1943? Introduce fictional tanks, like the Italian version of the Panther? Give the Italian 43 infantry with quality to match their German counterparts? Seems like a lot more work to me.

In this case, it might be best just to drop the core limitation idea all together after taking the Suez Canal.

My experience has been that, with the proper prestige tuning and the right stats in the equipment file, you can encourage a historical core composition while not ruling out a core composed of the best units (of fewer numbers). I have done this successfully for the Grand Campaigns, but it takes a lot of testing and work to do so, and any such equipment file would be completely incompatible with MP. So changing the equipment file is a good way to go if done right, I'm just concerned about MP balance.

[Chris10]

As I said..the core limitation of any nation should obviously change thru campaign and according timeframe, which will lead to different deployment schemes also but as any scenario further ahead than El Alamein is fictional there is no need to assume Italy would have dropped out of the war, so what ?...

oh..I see..there is no more units for Italy post 1943..hmm..just add a 43 version of Italian Inf and done...Italin planes,AA,recon and ships could be continued to be used without problems and the Semoventes 105/25 were in servie unitl 1945 ...dropping Italian core number to lower levels from Suez onwards should be considered but I certainly would consider fiedling my 4 star Bersagleri if I have any

[HelgaMarie2888]

I just agree with what Kerensky said