Reaction/Response Fire - Has anybody figured this out?

[GottaLove88s]

Finally finished the two AARs testing force selection for German heavy tanks... the new pricing works...

BUT the biggest issue I hit in the AAR is Reaction/Response fire from enemy units. Does anyone understand this?

1. Enemy units have some sort of restricted vision. You'll get away with moving/firing if you do it behind them. You might get away with it from the side.
2. Are enemy units restricted by the NUMBER of reaction/response shots that they can take per turn? Is it once? twice? three times? Or infinite?
3. Is there any way to know if the enemy unit cannot make ANY MORE reaction/response shots? When I left click on an enemy unit, it shows a number of bullets for that unit? Is this the number of shots left? Does this relate to the number of reaction/response shots remaining? Or is it meaningless for reaction/response fire?
4. How does suppression affect reaction/response fire? Obviously suppressed armour fires if you move/fire in their vision, but are there any particular triggers or limitations? Does suppression fire suffer some sort of penalty? How is this applied?

Any help/thoughts/ideas/experience with reaction/response fire, would be gratefully received. I've had AT-guns that don't shoot in reaction/response, even to units that attack them from the front. I've had side by side Panthers that refused to fire on a weekly armoured M10 that attacked directly from the front. And I've had infantry toasted by a King Tiger even though they approached in hunt mode from trees from the side. Can't for the life of me figure out the mechanics of this...???

[k9mike]

You aint alone...
By the way...Great game we had. Really enjoyed it. I made a new game of the new MP map that was made...You in??? I put the invite at the end of our game.
Mike

[pipfromslitherine]

I'm pretty sure this is explained (at least somewhat) in the manual and tutorial, but basically:

- yes, whether you get seen is a combo of hunt-vs-fast move, and the visibility of a given unit type from the front, sides, and rear. Bear in mind this is all probability based, so they might see you, they might not.
- all units have any leftover shots (e.g. if you don't use any in your turn, your units will generally have 2) plus an extra shot that is reaction only, so any unit will always have at least one reaction shot, but perhaps as many as 3 (or 4 for some Elite units). The 'extra' shot isn't shown - there is a desire from some to have it shown.
- suppressed armour reacts most of the time (perhaps too much, we are keeping an eye on it) but with a 50% accuracy penalty.

Cheers

Pip

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Pip,

I'm an iPad player so no physical/included manual, but I've scanned through the stuff on http://www.slitherinebravo.net/GameWiki ... eplay_main. The iPad tutorial simply states that if we save shots during our turn, they can be used during our opponent's turn.

Wow, I think that I've just learned something really important from your reply. Let me check my understanding (Q6 is the crucial one):

1. Detection by an opponent is probabilistic - with probability affected by a combination of visual penalties on the enemy, distance, angle, and whether we move in fast or hunt?
2. Does firing have a 100% detection probability?
3. Leftover shots are retained for reaction/response fire, but we always get at least one extra reaction/response shot per unit.
4. Elite units get a further extra shot. Is this all elite units? Or just certain unit types?
5. The number of shots left is shown on our opponent's unit data, minus the extra shot.
6. So to be 100% sure that we're safe, is it correct that our opponent will gradually use up their shots in reaction/response, reducing the number of bullets in his unit's data display? If that enemy unit fires one more time after its unit display shows zero bullets, ie. it has fired its extra shot, then it cannot fire any more shots in reaction/response during that turn? At that point, we could safely bring in highly powered/weakly armoured attack units (eg. US tank destroyers) and they will not be fired on in reaction/response?
7. Suppressed armour suffers a 50% accuracy penalty.

If I've understood you correctly, this is gold dust for effective gameplay!! Thank you

[IainMcNeil]

1. Detection by an opponent is probabilistic - with probability affected by a combination of visual penalties on the enemy, distance, angle, and whether we move in fast or hunt?

Correct - units have base detection levels as well. E.g. open topped tank destroyers have much better visibility. Non turreted tank destroyers are blind to the rear and very poor to the sides.

2. Does firing have a 100% detection probability?

Yes

3. Leftover shots are retained for reaction/response fire, but we always get at least one extra reaction/response shot per unit.

Yes - also remember Elite units can gain a shot so could have up to 4 shots in total.

4. Elite units get a further extra shot. Is this all elite units? Or just certain unit types?

Its set by type - every unit gains different skills. E.g. scouts gain the hunter skill which lets them move full speed and hunt. Infantry gain the sniper skill. Some units gain aimed shit, some get an extra shot.

5. The number of shots left is shown on our opponent's unit data, minus the extra shot.

Hmmm - this is probably true - we should show the additional shot here. I'll add it to the bug list.

6. So to be 100% sure that we're safe, is it correct that our opponent will gradually use up their shots in reaction/response, reducing the number of bullets in his unit's data display? If that enemy unit fires one more time after its unit display shows zero bullets, ie. it has fired its extra shot, then it cannot fire any more shots in reaction/response during that turn? At that point, we could safely bring in highly powered/weakly armoured attack units (eg. US tank destroyers) and they will not be fired on in reaction/response?

Yes - I'll look at fixing the shot display though.

7. Suppressed armour suffers a 50% accuracy penalty.

Yes

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Iain, That is really helpful info and is going to save my bacon in future games!

[GottaLove88s]

PS. I'm liking the "aimed sh1t"... there's plenty that I'd be happy to throw at somebody's King Tigers!!

[IainMcNeil]

You wouldn't believe how often that happens...

[gortwillsaveus]

Question: I can almost appreciate the reaction shot that a suppressed armored unit is allowed,...but why is it that troops do not get this same ability.

I'll give you an example. Your Engineer has been fired upon and now is suppressed to 40 morale. The turn ends and you take the Engineer into the safety of a forest and you are 2 deep into forest.
Now your opponent follows you in with his scout and bumps into you suppressed engineers. The engineers never react if they're below 50.

I'm not asking for this to be added,..just wondering what was the reasoning behind only allowing the AFV the reaction shot(s).

Sorry another question: I've had the same suppressed enemy tank fire at me multiple times in the same turn. Shouldn't they only get one reaction shot?

[GottaLove88s]

Interesting point Gort, I'm curious to look at a suppressed unit now. Do the play stats show full bullets which aren't allowed to be fired? Or empty bullets? If it shows "full" maybe the suppressed unit gets to fire its "full" load plus the extra reaction shot during its response turn. That would be ironic...

[junk2drive]

More info in the Manual Additions thread.

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Junk2Drive, Manual Additions thread is really handy. Can you keep that at the top of the forum somewhere? It didn't answer my/Gort's question tho. If a unit is suppressed, it gets the "extra" reaction/response shot, maybe plus an elite shot if it has that ability. BUT, if it's suppressed, does it also get the two regular shots, ie. potentially 3-4 reaction/response shots even when suppressed? From what Gort's saying, it looks like it does. Surely it should only get 1-2?

[IainMcNeil]

The logic behind infantry not getting a shot was that they are keeping their heads down - to take a shot back at the enemy exposes yourself and puts you at risk. In a tank you have nowhere really to hide. You are at no more risk if taking a shot than curled up in a ball.

[gortwillsaveus]

The logic behind infantry not getting a shot was that they are keeping their heads down - to take a shot back at the enemy exposes yourself and puts you at risk. In a tank you have nowhere really to hide. You are at no more risk if taking a shot than curled up in a ball.

Thanks Ian,..and just for the record,..I would not want infantry to have a reaction shot.
And, you did answer the question perfectly as to the logic behind the decision.