Squares again

[richafricanus]

A unit of LC evade past a friendly square but are caught by their pursuers. Contact happens within 1MU of the square. The square itself has been charged by a heavy cavalry unit. A couple of question
1. Can the square choose to fire at either the HC or the LC?
2. And if they fire at the LC, do the LC have to stop short of the evaders?
3. And if the LC do stop short and the fire forces them to retire do the evaders react as if caught anyway?

Attempted diagram below where H are HC, S is square, L is LC and E are the evaders

HHH

SS LLLL
SS EEEE

Cheers
Richard

[deadtorius]

Sequence of play
you declare assaults
Targets declare response, evade in this case. Evade move is made.
Chargers move and you can defensive fire against them. Charging units make outcome moves immediately.

Looks like the evaders bugger off regardless of shooting results.

The square is the target of a charge so can only shoot at the unit assaulting it, as I understand it. You can defensive fire at whatever passes within 2 MU as long as you are not the target of an assault yourself. If assaulted you can only shoot at the assaulting unit.

[richafricanus]

It makes sense that you must fire at the unit assaulting you, but I can't see it stated anywhere in the rules that you must, hence my question. In fact p.33 says for troops assaulted in flank or rear, that they can fire at a different assaulting unit.

As to the evaders, I get that they must evade, but do they count as contacted in the rear (ie drop a cohesion level) as per the rule on p.33 if the charge never hits home?

[panda2]

I agree with Deadtorius about the sequence of play on p24. It runs as follows:

-Assaults declared and CMTs made;
-Responses declared, CTs (or CMTs for intercepts made), and response moves made;
-Assaulting units that are being fired on at close range move to 2MU;
-Defensive fire resolved and results applied;
-Assaulting units moved into contact if allowed.

If the defensive fire stops the assaulting unit then it will never move into contact since movement into contact happens after defensive fire. The evading unit doen't therefore count as being contacted in the rear IMO.

On the targeting question, however, I don't agree with Deadtorius (sorry). The same proceedure is used for firing by the non active player in the assault phase as is used in the firing phase (p.48). The only differences being those set out on p.32, namely:
-only the non active player can fire;
-only assaulting units are eligible targets;
-fire only takes place at short range (with the exception of artillery firing and retiring).
Since both units in this case are assaulting and both enter the short range zone of the square, both are IMO eligible targets. The square therefore fires at both using the normal rules for dice allocation and splitting fire between multiple targets on pp 51-52.

Andy D

[deadtorius]

But the square is the target of a separate assault, unless I made a misinterpretation there, and since its being assaulted I assumed it could only fire at the unit assaulting it. However I have been wrong before, perhaps Terry needs to step in before it comes to blows

Actually since you would get more dice against the enemy assaulting you if you don't split dice, not sure you would want to fire at more than one target. But it is still a choice player has to make and can change depending on circumstances.

[terrys]

I answered a similar question in an earlier post as follows:

We will be adding this to the clarifications ...
> A square has no rear, and has 4 front edges.
> A square only fires at close range
> A square fires with a maximum of 3 or 4 dice (small/large) +1 if it has an artillery attachment.
> A square can choose which edge or edges it fires from - It shares its dice against all possible targets (within 2 MU of this edge) using the normal rules for allocating dice.
> A square can both give and receive flank supporting fire - It can only do so if there is no other target within 2 MU of any of its faces.

Notes:
It theory it should only be firing with 1 or 2 dice per face, but this doesn't give the result we want.
We want to stop players riding cavalry past squares without risk. We therefore need squares to be abe to fire with at least 3 dice.
Firing with 3 dice from more more than 1 face would make squares far too effective, therefore this is a compromise.

The answer therefore is that it will fire all its dice at the unit(s) assaulting it.

[deadtorius]

The answer therefore is that it will fire all its dice at the unit(s) assaulting it.

so since 1 unit is assaulting only a neighboring unit and will only pass within 2 Mu, the square does not shoot at that enemy, but puts all its dice into the other enemy unit that is only assaulting the square correct?

[BrettPT]

Hi Terry

When doing the square clarifications, you should probably add in whether squares can give and/or receive rear support and flank support in combat. I always struggle with trying to find a definitive answer to that one.

Cheers
Brett

[richafricanus]

Terry, are you compelled to shoot only at enemy assaulting you? I don't see this in the rules. If you aren't compelled to, then surely the square could split it's fire based on normal allocation rules?

[nickdives]

Does this mean that the three side of the squae not assaulted sit and have a brew and a fag as other enemy simply move past?

[terrys]

Terry, are you compelled to shoot only at enemy assaulting you? I don't see this in the rules. If you aren't compelled to, then surely the square could split it's fire based on normal allocation rules?

There is nothing that specifically dictates this - apart from common sense, logic and the statement in the rules:
"If the unit being assaulted chooses to stand and fire, the assaulting unit must 'pause' 2MU from the target and recieve fire at that range."
If the unit being assaulted does not fire at the unit assaulting it, then it doesn't have to stop at 2MU, and contact will be made before the defending unit gets to fire at a different target.

Does this mean that the three sides of the squae not assaulted sit and have a brew and a fag as other enemy simply move past?

Yes - You have to consider that the chargers (in this case the cavalry) don't stop at the point of contact. The 'unit' is more than 1 battalion and will therefore probably be in 2 to 4 battalion squares. Therefore, the cavalry will be flowing around them. The outcome of the combat will determine whether of not they flowed around and past, or will fall back and regroup.

[LeslieMitchell]

quick question
Can squares move?

[BrettPT]

quick question
Can squares move?

Page 56, 3rd bullet point: "With the exception of unlimbered heavy artillery in difficult terrain, all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square)"

Given that a square has no flank (page 108) nor rear (see Terry's post on this thread), by default this must be a forwards move and so counts as simple.

It follows that a square can provide rear support to other infantry and artillery if the square is within 1MU of the supported unit's rear.
However, given that a square has no rear itself, it is not eligible to receive rear suport (see page 57, 4th bullet point- "The supporting unit must be capable of reaching the rear of the supported unit in a single move ...").

Regarding flank support for melee, given Terry's clarification, squares can give and receive flank support for firing and therefore can give and receive flank support for melee.

-that's my current interpretation anyway! Hopefully this will all be clarified in a FAQ at some stage.

Cheers
Brett

[LeslieMitchell]

quick question
Can squares move?

Page 56, 3rd bullet point: "With the exception of unlimbered heavy artillery in difficult terrain, all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square)"

Given that a square has no flank (page 108) nor rear (see Terry's post on this thread), by default this must be a forwards move and so counts as simple.

It follows that a square can provide rear support to other infantry and artillery if the square is within 1MU of the supported unit's rear.
However, given that a square has no rear itself, it is not eligible to receive rear suport (see page 57, 4th bullet point- "The supporting unit must be capable of reaching the rear of the supported unit in a single move ...").

Regarding flank support for melee, given Terry's clarification, squares can give and receive flank support for firing and therefore can give and receive flank support for melee.

-that's my current interpretation anyway! Hopefully this will all be clarified in a FAQ at some stage.

Cheers
Brett

sound about right

[david53]

quick question
Can squares move?

Page 56, 3rd bullet point: "With the exception of unlimbered heavy artillery in difficult terrain, all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square)"

Given that a square has no flank (page 108) nor rear (see Terry's post on this thread), by default this must be a forwards move and so counts as simple.

It follows that a square can provide rear support to other infantry and artillery if the square is within 1MU of the supported unit's rear.
However, given that a square has no rear itself, it is not eligible to receive rear suport (see page 57, 4th bullet point- "The supporting unit must be capable of reaching the rear of the supported unit in a single move ...").

Regarding flank support for melee, given Terry's clarification, squares can give and receive flank support for firing and therefore can give and receive flank support for melee.

-that's my current interpretation anyway! Hopefully this will all be clarified in a FAQ at some stage.

Cheers
Brett

sound about right

Not sure now you've listed it your first part states ..."all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square"...This to me simply states that infantry in square can move one MU in all terrain, but what about open terrain were infantry either moves 6 or 3 MU. Or am I missing something.

[panda2]

The movements rates you quote are for reformed infantry in tactical formation or extended line respectively. If you check the table on p.35 there is no movement rate listed for infantry of any type whilst in square. Without the passage quoted by Brett, infantry in square would not be able to move at all, except, perhaps, to slide 1 base width using a CMT. Open terrain is a type of terrain, so squares can move 1 MU in it.

Andy D

[deadtorius]

keep in mind while in a square you have to keep your formation so its a slower go then moving in normal tactical, hence only going 1 MU. Often baggage officers and wounded are pulled into the hollow center, and add to the slower movement.

[david53]

The movements rates you quote are for reformed infantry in tactical formation or extended line respectively. If you check the table on p.35 there is no movement rate listed for infantry of any type whilst in square. Without the passage quoted by Brett, infantry in square would not be able to move at all, except, perhaps, to slide 1 base width using a CMT. Open terrain is a type of terrain, so squares can move 1 MU in it.

Andy D

Am I still missing something you state there is no movement rate for square in the table but then in terrian they can move 1MU not getting this either you can move or not.

[panda2]

You can move 1 MU in any terrain, including open terrain.

Andy D

[CLAVDIVS]

Hi Dave,
Look at page 36 3rd bullet point All units can move a minimum of 1 MU in all terrain and conditions (EVEN INFANTRY IN SQUARE.)