Thoughts from a few 25mm games

[daveallen]

These are:

Awkward Generals

Probably due to the tighter space available in 25mm I am having problems in maneouvring around generals. I assume it's okay to disrupt formations to pass a general - eg a column passing along the rear of a BG with a general in it would slide elements out of line as they passed. As in the diagram below

GAAA
ABBB
B

Where A is the unit [whoops, BG] facing up page with general G, and B is the BG marching in column to the right.


Drilled Too Cheap?

When BGs are advancing there isn't much difference between drilled and undrilled but as the battle breaks up it becomes nearly impossible to get undrilled foot to do what comes naturally to drilled. Are you sure just one point is enough?


Dancing Battle Wagons

I'm betting I've missed something [see next point] but I can't find any restriction on the way BWs turn, expand and contract.

Did you know Hussites are now available in plastic?


Finding Rules

Having read the rules more than once I am still having real trouble finding stuff. Several rules seem to be scattered - combat is especially fragmented, as are quality re-rolls. If you want I can go into this in more detail. I can see that you place each rule in its context but I think there is a case for then gathering all the bits of a rule in one place to make it easy to find. Especially the niggly rules like re-rolls.

Pehaps this is mainly a function of word processed layout and the lack of a good index. Aspects I expect will be overcome in the published set.

Dave Allen

[shall]

Awkward Generals
Probably due to the tighter space available in 25mm I am having problems in maneouvring around generals. I assume it's okay to disrupt formations to pass a general - eg a column passing along the rear of a BG with a general in it would slide elements out of line as they passed. As in the diagram below
GAAA
ABBB
B
Where A is the unit [whoops, BG] facing up page with general G, and B is the BG marching in column to the right.

You can move the general the minimum needed to allow toher moves to take place - even to the exntent of moving generals from rear to front. Most of the time this solves the problems I find but maybe you have examples where it doesn't.

Drilled Too Cheap?
When BGs are advancing there isn't much difference between drilled and undrilled but as the battle breaks up it becomes nearly impossible to get undrilled foot to do what comes naturally to drilled. Are you sure just one point is enough?

Probably ok at the prices they are at present from the 60 odd games I have had. The value depends on how good you are at getting the undrilled troops inthe right place in the right formation, so it put a premium on some good early decisions.

Dancing Battle Wagons
I'm betting I've missed something [see next point] but I can't find any restriction on the way BWs turn, expand and contract.
Did you know Hussites are now available in plastic?

The main restriction is that its a CMT to do anything at all and this is pretty limiting. The second limitation is that they only shoot out of the sides so you need to get them into columns for them to be effective. Put the two together and even the Hussites find much manouvre difficult - but do-able and fun (I've tried them out twice).

Finding Rules
Having read the rules more than once I am still having real trouble finding stuff. Several rules seem to be scattered - combat is especially fragmented, as are quality re-rolls. If you want I can go into this in more detail. I can see that you place each rule in its context but I think there is a case for then gathering all the bits of a rule in one place to make it easy to find. Especially the niggly rules like re-rolls.

Hope so - it is a bit tough at present. The recent proofs have colour coded chapters (coloured on the page edges) and notes of what is on the page for each of them. There is also an index at the back to help further. The colour coding looks good to me as you can flick to a section and then flick through the page edges to find the area you are looking for. Hopefully this will solve the current difficulties.

Cheers

Si

[terrys]

Awkward Generals

Probably due to the tighter space available in 25mm I am having problems in maneouvring around generals. I assume it's okay to disrupt formations to pass a general - eg a column passing along the rear of a BG with a general in it would slide elements out of line as they passed. As in the diagram below

GAAA
ABBB
B

Where A is the unit [whoops, BG] facing up page with general G, and B is the BG marching in column to the right.

When placing a general in the front rank the rule states:
'If there is no room left for him to be so placed, a marker must be placed on top of one of the bases of the battle group to represent his position.'

In the above case, you should remove the general and replace him with a marker until the BG to the rear has moved out of the way.

[daveallen]

Battle Wagons

The main restriction is that its a CMT to do anything at all and this is pretty limiting. The second limitation is that they only shoot out of the sides so you need to get them into columns for them to be effective. Put the two together and even the Hussites find much manouvre difficult - but do-able and fun (I've tried them out twice).

Found it, but only after I knew what to look for! Wouldn't it be easier to put "must pass a CMT to move. Cannot be Drilled." in the defintion rather than "Not very manoeuvrable, so always count as undrilled." That last bit makes it seem that being Undrilled is the penalty for lack of manoeuvrability.

Similarly for Light Artillery.


Finding Rules

... The recent proofs have colour coded chapters (coloured on the page edges) and notes of what is on the page for each of them. There is also an index at the back to help further. The colour coding looks good to me as you can flick to a section and then flick through the page edges to find the area you are looking for. Hopefully this will solve the current difficulties.

Very glad to hear this. Also brings me to another couple of thoughts I was having about the QR sheets:

Is it possible to print the Full Turn Sequence on the reverse of the Terrain/Points sheet as I have found this to be almost continuously needed during my first few games?

I am not a fan of the colour scheme on the sheets but again recognise the limitations of Excel. However, I hope the published version will also take into account the need to proof against colour blindness.

[daveallen]

Awkward Generals

When placing a general in the front rank the rule states:
'If there is no room left for him to be so placed, a marker must be placed on top of one of the bases of the battle group to represent his position.'

In the above case, you should remove the general and replace him with a marker until the BG to the rear has moved out of the way.

Thanks Terry, that's a big help.

Also another opportunity to buy markers

[shall]

Battle Wagons

The main restriction is that its a CMT to do anything at all and this is pretty limiting. The second limitation is that they only shoot out of the sides so you need to get them into columns for them to be effective. Put the two together and even the Hussites find much manouvre difficult - but do-able and fun (I've tried them out twice).

Found it, but only after I knew what to look for! Wouldn't it be easier to put "must pass a CMT to move. Cannot be Drilled." in the defintion rather than "Not very manoeuvrable, so always count as undrilled." That last bit makes it seem that being Undrilled is the penalty for lack of manoeuvrability.

Similarly for Light Artillery.

Its not undrilled it page 18 just before the table

4th bullet

"Light Artillery and battle wagons (or a battle line including either of these) must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex."

On the colour scheme, it looks very nice and I am colour blind myself so not a bad test of that. Not the glary version we have at present.

Si

[shall]

Battle Wagons

The main restriction is that its a CMT to do anything at all and this is pretty limiting. The second limitation is that they only shoot out of the sides so you need to get them into columns for them to be effective. Put the two together and even the Hussites find much manouvre difficult - but do-able and fun (I've tried them out twice).

Found it, but only after I knew what to look for! Wouldn't it be easier to put "must pass a CMT to move. Cannot be Drilled." in the defintion rather than "Not very manoeuvrable, so always count as undrilled." That last bit makes it seem that being Undrilled is the penalty for lack of manoeuvrability.

Similarly for Light Artillery.

Its not undrilled it page 18 just before the table

4th bullet

"Light Artillery and battle wagons (or a battle line including either of these) must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex."

On the colour scheme, it looks very nice and I am colour blind myself so not a bad test of that. Not the glary version we have at present.

Si

[daveallen]

Its not undrilled it page 18 just before the table

The point I'm making is this is a key rule for both BWs and Art and so needs to be easier to find. It should be repeated as part of the definition of both, rather than the obscure references to poor manoeuvrability we presently have.

This was always one of the failings of DBM where the lack of redundancy meant knowing where to find special cases was one of the skills needed for serious play...

Dave

[shall]

Oh well ... fair enough .... thought we'd managed making it easy to find by putting the specific bullet in just before the table.

Never claimed we were perfect...

Si

[rogerg]

I think we've been here before. Redundancy means a greater quantity and it is then more difficult to find it.
In the case of war wagons, the dice for every move is not something you forget! I have had my Hussites well beaten in two consecutive games. Even with a general with the BG, it is still only about two out of three times that you get to move. They also occupy so much space that one false move and you have a traffic jam.

[daveallen]

I think we've been here before. Redundancy means a greater quantity...

Not in this case because I'm suggesting replacing "Not very manoeuvrable, so always count as undrilled." with "must pass a CMT to move. Cannot be Drilled." or some such, in the definition. Okay, it's one extra word.

[rogerg]

I think I can live with one extra word. It is having things repeated in different places that I believe is not helpful.