Charging into a flank that's not a flank.

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I had an interesting situation that came up during Melee.

One BG of Heroic Roman Auxiliaries (2 ranks MF Auxiliaries supported by 1 rank LF Auxiliaries) were in frontal contact against two BG's of cowardly Qin MF Impact foot with the Impact Foot overlapping the legendary Auxiliaries on both sides. Fought them to a standstill to the point where one BG of Impact Foot were about to break... but that's another story.

WAAAAAY off to the Auxiliaries left was another BG of cowardly Qin Lighthorse, but not in position to do a flank charge. They DID have the move and ability to charge the 'flank' of the Auxiliaries and into the LF, but it wouldn't count as a flank charge as it wasn't a legal flank charge.

We did the impact combat and naturally the heroic Auxiliary light foot fought the cowardly Qin to a standstill. Now, the Qin had to conform... but had nowhere to conform... the Auxiliaries were already in frontal contact with overlap from the Qin foot. If the lighthorse moved into 'overlap position' they would have been in the same place as the overlapping Qin foot.

So, what's the story?

We decided it was all too hard and took back the move as 'an illegal charge' and the LH then proceeded to try to beat up some other Lightfoot (rather unsuccessfully from memory).

Thoughts?

Just in case it wasn't clear... I was the commander of the Auxiliaries.

[philqw78]

That belongs in this years Christmas Quiz. Excellent.

Probably: the charge counts as frontal contact, and frontal contact is illegal in this situation as front rank bases are already fighting, so the charge is illegal

[ravenflight]

That belongs in this years Christmas Quiz. Excellent.

Probably: the charge counts as frontal contact, and frontal contact is illegal in this situation as front rank bases are already fighting, so the charge is illegal

That's effectively what we decided. Besides, we were both tired after a long competition

[Polkovnik]

Yes, you cannot charge the flank of a file that is in frontal contact already unless it is a valid flank charge. Normally you have the choice of either positioning yourself to flank charge the following turn or moving to an overlap position, but you cannot do the latter in this case.

[Polkovnik]

Interesting question would be - what if the Impact Foot and the LH both charged the Auxilia at the same time ?

[IanP]

No rule book with me but from memory:

1. The third rank is a legal target as they are not contributing dice.
2. The LH have to test as the unit is not entirely LH or LF.
3. The tricky bit, I think there is some reference to must be able to legally conform in the manouver phase. I may be dreaming that bit, but if it isn't there, then it opens up some interresting situations, such as where do they then go?

Ian.

[hazelbark]

Probably: the charge counts as frontal contact, and frontal contact is illegal in this situation as front rank bases are already fighting, so the charge is illegal

From the description he charged the 3rd rank which was LF.

Is that not legal as the LF are not in combat.

[philqw78]

From the description he charged the 3rd rank which was LF.

Is that not legal as the LF are not in combat.

Subject to the CMT mentioned above yes. But as it is not a flank charge it counts as a frontal contact and the front cannot be contacted legally.

I think we are thinking too much

[ravenflight]

No rule book with me but from memory:

1. The third rank is a legal target as they are not contributing dice.

Disagree. Otherwise (when nobody is in combat) why can't you select the 3rd rank of a pike formation to charge? You still have to legally be able to make a flank charge, and in this case he couldn't. He could only legally make a frontal charge.

[ravenflight]

Is that not legal as the LF are not in combat.

Not a legal flank charge.

[IanB3406]

No, but it counts as a frontal charge. Other wise you might notbe able to charge a bg you were next to if not in the flank and at an angle where you couldnt hit this front. Another reason not to take supporting light foot in these rules.

[lawrenceg]

From memory:

The charge is legal as it hits the 3rd rank.
It counts as a frontal charge because it is not a valid flank charge.
Because it is a frontal charge the combat is resolved as if the base that was charged is the front rank base - so the LH are on half dice and the foot get their impact phase shot from the LF as well as full dice and POA for the front rank base.
Conforming side edge to side edge in front of the overlapping foot base might be an overlap position - check the definition.
If you cannot conform then you remain unconformed but continue to fight as if conformed - the rules are clear on that. This probably means you get the choice in melee whether to fight with the LH in overlap or the foot in overlap.

[grahambriggs]

You can certainly charge the third rank. From the FAQ:

CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE
What POAs are used?
The normal POAs are used as if the charge had contacted the front of the enemy file. Thus, for example, if the 3rd rank
base of a 4 rank deep pikemen battle group is contacted, the pikemen use their normal POAs for 3 ranks deep pikemen
and for the 4th rank.
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks.

The LH must pass a CMT as they are charging non skirmishers (The LF in a mixed BG are not skirmishers).

They can't conform to the front as the Qin foot are there, and the only base in contact is the LF and they're not in the front. Nor can they conform to an Overlap position on that base. So They stay where they are.

In the melee, the following rule from the Melee phase applies:

"If it is not possible for battle groups in contact to line up, they continue to fight in an offset position with the same number of bases counting as „in front edge contact‟ or 'overlapping' as if they had conformed. If two bases would conform to the same enemy base then the one which has the shortest distance to conform fights against it. If the distance is equal their player chooses which fights"

I suggest this means that the Qin infantry, who are perfectly conformed, will fight and the LH will not.

[hazelbark]

Is that not legal as the LF are not in combat.

Not a legal flank charge.

but it is a legal charge.

[hazelbark]

I think graham has it.

You can certainly charge the third rank. From the FAQ:

They can't conform to the front as the Qin foot are there, and the only base in contact is the LF and they're not in the front. Nor can they conform to an Overlap position on that base. So They stay where they are.
I suggest this means that the Qin infantry, who are perfectly conformed, will fight and the LH will not.

I don't have rules with me. My one thought is I suspect if the LH conformed to overlap that would be overlapping the front base so they would conform. Then the owner would have the choice of which overlap (not both) to use on that side. THe probalby single base of LH or the foot.

[grahambriggs]

I think graham has it.

You can certainly charge the third rank. From the FAQ:

They can't conform to the front as the Qin foot are there, and the only base in contact is the LF and they're not in the front. Nor can they conform to an Overlap position on that base. So They stay where they are.
I suggest this means that the Qin infantry, who are perfectly conformed, will fight and the LH will not.

I don't have rules with me. My one thought is I suspect if the LH conformed to overlap that would be overlapping the front base so they would conform. Then the owner would have the choice of which overlap (not both) to use on that side. THe probalby single base of LH or the foot.

Don't think so. The LF base is the base in contact, so you'd have to conform to that. Because it's the third rank, there's no valid overlap position on that base. If the Qin foot were not there the LH would conform to the front of the Roman position. You can't do that as the foot are there. So I think the LH are stuck.

[dave_r]

I think graham has it.

You can certainly charge the third rank. From the FAQ:

They can't conform to the front as the Qin foot are there, and the only base in contact is the LF and they're not in the front. Nor can they conform to an Overlap position on that base. So They stay where they are.
I suggest this means that the Qin infantry, who are perfectly conformed, will fight and the LH will not.

I don't have rules with me. My one thought is I suspect if the LH conformed to overlap that would be overlapping the front base so they would conform. Then the owner would have the choice of which overlap (not both) to use on that side. THe probalby single base of LH or the foot.

Don't think so. The LF base is the base in contact, so you'd have to conform to that. Because it's the third rank, there's no valid overlap position on that base. If the Qin foot were not there the LH would conform to the front of the Roman position. You can't do that as the foot are there. So I think the LH are stuck.

Why can't they conform as an overlap to the front of the column they contacted?

[grahambriggs]

Why can't they conform as an overlap to the front of the column they contacted?

There are already friends there: "Qin MF Impact foot with the Impact Foot overlapping the legendary Auxiliaries on both sides"

Though there is "If bases are in contact with the flank of enemy bases as a result of a charge that did not qualify as a flank or rear charge, the battle group must pivot to conform with the front edge of the enemy battle group, sliding the minimum necessary to contact the front edge of at least one enemy base, or to an overlap position if this is not possible"

So you could read the overlap bit of that as being "an overlap position against a front rank enemy base". Though that would contradict conforming to the enemy base in contact.

Whichever way you do it, it doesn't make much sense for the LH to make the charge in the first place.

[shadowdragon]

Why can't they conform as an overlap to the front of the column they contacted?

There are already friends there: "Qin MF Impact foot with the Impact Foot overlapping the legendary Auxiliaries on both sides"

Though there is "If bases are in contact with the flank of enemy bases as a result of a charge that did not qualify as a flank or rear charge, the battle group must pivot to conform with the front edge of the enemy battle group, sliding the minimum necessary to contact the front edge of at least one enemy base, or to an overlap position if this is not possible"

So you could read the overlap bit of that as being "an overlap position against a front rank enemy base". Though that would contradict conforming to the enemy base in contact.

Whichever way you do it, it doesn't make much sense for the LH to make the charge in the first place.

Graham,

If the Qin MF Impact foot overlap on both sides and LH BG is stuck in contact with the 3 rank LF base, then do the Qin MF get an overlap base in melee on that side? My view is they should not get both the MF base overlap base and LH base, which again comes to it doesn't make sense to make the charge in the first place. The only way it would make sense is if the 3rd rank LF base were turned 90 degrees, but that would mean fighting in two directions for a charge that wasn't a legal flank charge.

[grahambriggs]

I'm sure that you would only get one or the other overlapping, not both.