battle lines

[blucosmon]

Can battle lines charge/shoot, or must they break into individual BG's?

tia
-MS

[bbotus]

Battle Lines (BLs) are used in the Maneouver Phase. Besides moving everyone together, the principal advantage of a BL is that multiple BGs may take a CMT together with a +1 for the commander with the BL (last paragraph page 30).

Declaration of charges is done by individual BGs not BLs (page 52). If all BGs in a battle line declare a charge and the enemy evades then each BG rolls a separate VMD to pursue. Also, note page 59, 1st bullet. If a BG that is part of a BL must test to charge without orders, it tests by itself and can count the commander with the BG only if the commander is actually with that BG.

Shooting is done by bases, not by BGs or BLs. All eligible bases shoot at specific targets as per target priority (page 81). Just because a unit in the BL shoots, it does not break up the BL.

[grahambriggs]

Battle lines are just for movement. Charging is by battle group and shooting is by by base.

The greatest benefit of a battle line is that it allows the whole line to make a second move. So it's handy early on in the game for getting where you want to be more quickly.

A secondary benefit is that a battle line of undrilled troops can wheel near the enemy without taking a complex move test because a general is present with the battle line. If you try that as individual battle groups what often happens is that some pass the test and can wheel and other fail so can't, leaving your line in a mess.

[peteratjet]

Some Complex Moves are inherently impossible for battlelines. A battleline can't contract or expand, and (I think) can't turn by 90 degrees. That doesn't leave much. Basically, artillery moves and putting down / picking up portable defences.

The most common uses are double moves and rendering wheels and short moves by untrained troops near the enemy simple moves.

[dave_r]

Some Complex Moves are inherently impossible for battlelines. A battleline can't contract or expand, and (I think) can't turn by 90 degrees. That doesn't leave much. Basically, artillery moves and putting down / picking up portable defences.

The most common uses are double moves and rendering wheels and short moves by untrained troops near the enemy simple moves.

The only thing a battle line can do is a simple advance. This can include a wheel. You can't do a double wheel.

Everything else is right out.

[bbotus]

The only thing a battle line can do is a simple advance. This can include a wheel.

Yep, page 41, BLs are limited to the 'Advances' section of the table. Since a general must be with a BL, it can do any advance with undrilled troops.

I sense desperation for more questions on this forum. Anyone have anymore quizzes?

[Cynical]

In a recent battle my opponent had a normal battle line:

AAAABBBBCCCC
AAAABBBBCCCC

and after the double move it ended up like:

AAAA
AAAABBBB
_____BBBBCCCC
_________CCCC

He claimed this was legal as the BG’s stayed in contact for the entire move.

To me it just felt wrong but I could not find anything to say that it was illegal. If the move is illegal where does it say it?

[philqw78]

It is bollox. But I ain't got the rules here to say why.

[batesmotel]

All the BGs in the battle line have to move at the same speed and wheel through the same angle is the gist of why it's illegal.

Chris

[grahambriggs]

It's a bit unclear. However, and bizarrely, the rule is in the Second Moves part of the Manouvre section:

"A battle line must remain together throughout the 1st and 2nd moves. It cannot be formed as a 1st move, then moved together as a 2nd move. It cannot „drop off‟ or „pick up‟ battle groups during the moves."

Not the most precise rule.

[gozerius]

Nothing could be clearer.
Page 40 - "Movement is made by an individual battlegroup, by multiple battlegroups moving as a battleline, or by commander's bases moving independently."
Page 41 - "Battlelines have the move distance of their slowest battlegroup."

[bbotus]

I agree with gozerius. The rules are specific. And the page 41 reference (trusting gozerius to make the right reference) is why the

and after the double move it ended up like:

AAAA
AAAABBBB
_____BBBBCCCC
_________CCCC

was totally illegal.

[zoltan]

In a recent battle my opponent had a normal battle line:

AAAABBBBCCCC
AAAABBBBCCCC

and after the double move it ended up like:

AAAA
AAAABBBB
_____BBBBCCCC
_________CCCC

He claimed this was legal as the BG’s stayed in contact for the entire move.

To me it just felt wrong but I could not find anything to say that it was illegal. If the move is illegal where does it say it?

You are right to feel cynical - your opponent is a cheat! Get her to read the rules that others have pointed out.

[rogerg]

One of those situations where finding precise wording is not so easy. The intent that all the bases move together is obvious to those who have played a lot together and used previous rule sets. If we were starting writing rules from scratch, with no previous gaming experience, it would be necessary to have something like 'all bases moving in an advance move together keeping their initial relative positions, except where interpenetrating'. The quote from page 40 doesn't necessarily imply this.

[grahambriggs]

Nothing could be clearer.
Page 40 - "Movement is made by an individual battlegroup, by multiple battlegroups moving as a battleline, or by commander's bases moving independently."
Page 41 - "Battlelines have the move distance of their slowest battlegroup."

Right. So I have a battle line of several HF and LF BGs. Page 40 says I can move them as a battle line. Page 41 tells me they have the move distance of the slowest battle group. Which is the HF. Who's move is up to 3 MU. So I move some of the BGs in the line 3MU, and others 1MU.

Can you show me where it's clear that I can't do that? because the two rules you have quoted don't prevent it.

[shadowdragon]

One of those situations where finding precise wording is not so easy. The intent that all the bases move together is obvious to those who have played a lot together and used previous rule sets. If we were starting writing rules from scratch, with no previous gaming experience, it would be necessary to have something like 'all bases moving in an advance move together keeping their initial relative positions, except where interpenetrating'. The quote from page 40 doesn't necessarily imply this.

And yet they were able to find precise wording for FoGR for "divisions", that rule sets equivalent of "battle lines". The wording there is, "Apart from shifts they must either all move the same distance straight forward, or the division must wheel as a whole. The move can, however, be partly straight forward and partly wheeling." That's not so hard and it certainly seems much clearer to me.

A new gamer should be able to pick up published set of rules and be able to start playing without having knowledge of previous rule sets. Indeed knowledge of previous rule sets is often a source of confusion when a new rule set does something different.

[shadowdragon]

Nothing could be clearer.
Page 40 - "Movement is made by an individual battlegroup, by multiple battlegroups moving as a battleline, or by commander's bases moving independently."
Page 41 - "Battlelines have the move distance of their slowest battlegroup."

Right. So I have a battle line of several HF and LF BGs. Page 40 says I can move them as a battle line. Page 41 tells me they have the move distance of the slowest battle group. Which is the HF. Who's move is up to 3 MU. So I move some of the BGs in the line 3MU, and others 1MU.

Can you show me where it's clear that I can't do that? because the two rules you have quoted don't prevent it.

I agree with you Graham. The quoted lines don't clearly prevent the situation you describe except by inference (i.e., if the situation you describe above is allowed then what's the logic for not allowing the LF moving their normal maximum so long as they remain in contact with the rest of the battleline?).

[dave_r]

for bonus points, can somebody tell me what happens when part of a battleline interpenetrates another unit?

i.e. if you have a battle line 9 bases wide and two bases deep and five of those bases (front rank only) reach some troops they can interpenetrate. What is the finishing position of the battle line...

[shadowdragon]

for bonus points, can somebody tell me what happens when part of a battleline interpenetrates another unit?

i.e. if you have a battle line 9 bases wide and two bases deep and five of those bases (front rank only) reach some troops they can interpenetrate. What is the finishing position of the battle line...

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! I won't touch that one.

[bbotus]

for bonus points, can somebody tell me what happens when part of a battleline interpenetrates another unit?

Good question, especially since we have different interpretations of the partial interpenetration rules. Page 47 only says that BGs may interpenetrate. It doesn't say BLs may do so. I don't know. I'd think a BL of cav could move though LF or BL of infantry could move though artillery but maybe not.

And yet they were able to find precise wording for FoGR for "divisions", that rule sets equivalent of "battle lines".

OK, point taken. The authors are learning from all the possible interpretations we can think up for what the English language means. The authors must think that the only people that play FoG are lawyers.