Panzer Corps East - The struggle for Russia "Grand Strategy"

[soldier]

G'day
the old civ 3 mod i mentioned was actually just one huge scenario made by Sarevoc and Rocoteh (they were involved in a few other mod/scenario projects). it was for conquests (and was actually the reason i got the expansion : ) . Heres the link if your interested, lots of threads (70 +) but not many screenshots

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97038

it was actually called Barbarossa the war in the east 1941 - 1945

I started it a few times but could never finish it as it slowed down so much and eventually seemed to stop on my old PC. It was a fine piece of work however and your strategic map reminded me of it (from years ago)

[Chris10]

G'day
the old civ 3 mod i mentioned was actually just one huge scenario made by Sarevoc and Rocoteh (they were involved in a few other mod/scenario projects). it was for conquests (and was actually the reason i got the expansion : ) . Heres the link if your interested, lots of threads (70 +) but not many screenshots

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97038

it was actually called Barbarossa the war in the east 1941 - 1945

I started it a few times but could never finish it as it slowed down so much and eventually seemed to stop on my old PC. It was a fine piece of work however and your strategic map reminded me of it (from years ago)

ohhhh,doooohhhh...beautiful! Thnx a bunch my friend...btw, nowadays PCs are a lot better and may play the scenario at a higer velocity...Ill download it and give it a try anyway once Iam done with Panzercorps East... ..

[HBalck]

If Massi work for your project I will give you also my full Eastern packets. I like your map also (BTW I have an bigger scale), but I think its funny to play your big map in some MP games. If you like it - let me know - I give your the full access to all my units.

Also I can give you some informations about correctly unit positions on the soviet side - I read the most soviet Literatur.
correct units start postion maps: (Note I have also the most regiment positions on detailed maps ! - also I have all polish and soviet Army maps 1:100000 to the line Smolensk /Kiev)
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/8449/pribovo.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4256/zapovo2.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7990/kovoq.jpg

my old organizations for JTCS meets PG3D: (BTW I am the first at 2008 to talk with Matrix Games for a concept for a new game called Panzer Corps - they used many of my old concept ideas than, but I worked on other game projects since 2009 !)
http://www.gamefront.com/files/21740168 ... Center.zip

H.Balck

[mike322539]

Hello HBalck, unfortunately its part of troops historically incorrect. At first viewing, I immediately noticed that you have the (motorized) 10.ID is not listed in XXIV.mot Corps Pz.Gr.2. Read in the war diary of the German Wehrmacht and Wiki. I am willing to make further corrections, I am working since more than 30 years with the German army and have a very extensive library of constellations, thicknesses and compositions of units. In addition, the true picture of your Pe-8 in part 1 factory unit HBalck not. The model is a B-17G. Russia copied but only the B-29 under the name of Tupolev Tu-4 1948-1952 (847 pieces). If you need help to get the correct data to let me know.

10. Infanterie-Division (motorisiert) (Mai/Juni 1941) (direction of attack Gomel , today name Homel)

Infanterie-Regiment (motorisiert) 20

Infanterie-Regiment (motorisiert) 41

Kradschützen-Bataillon 40

Aufklärungs-Abteilung (motorisiert) 10

Artillerie-Regiment (motorisiert) 10

Panzer-Jäger-Abteilung 10

Pionier-Bataillon (motorisiert) 10

Nachrichten-Abteilung (motorisiert) 10

Feldersatz-Bataillon 10

Infanterie-Divisions-Nachschubführer (motorisiert) 10

[mike322539]

HBalck your Russian plans the establishment of the Army Group Center's wrong sometimes. The 267.ID was in June 1941 under the 4.Armee, LIII.Korps in space Brest-Litovsk. Divisional history and read the wiki.

[HBalck]

HBalck your Russian plans the establishment of the Army Group Center's wrong sometimes. The 267.ID was in June 1941 under the 4.Armee, LIII.Korps in space Brest-Litovsk. Divisional history and read the wiki.

Please don't read and trust wiki - many things there are incorrect. Read divisional history books or scientific elaborations - the 267.ID are under the command of General Lemelsens XXIV.mot Corps Pz.Gr.2. for the first days and for the transition for the river bug. Positioning in the west of 18th tank division near Pratulin (source: Heydorn: Der sowjetische Aufmarsch im Bialystoker Balkon, München 1989, S. 159ff.)
I dont have an Model of an Pe-8 yet - note this model are very expensively - it will come later correctly. It is not necessary to write it several times - presupposed you don't have Alzheimer's disease.
For the future - please read some books - don't trust wikipedia !!! And if you see an real historical error, quite possible even if I read most literature, please write the source not any Internet sources with your Smattering of knowledge ! Note I am a Historian on an german university, I am used to it to work scientifically, BTW more than your years.

H.Balck

[El_Condoro]

This is starting to get OT from Chris' mod. Let us know, Chris, if you would like the OT posts moved to a new thread or if it's OK to leave them as is.

[mike322539]

I'll post the result of insults H.Balck no comments on remarks by H.Balck more. I had written a neutral comment, which contained no reason for insults. Wiki was only an indication, I possessed more than 500 books on the subject of World War 2, which I've also read and comment not only from the Russian perspective. As one historian of German university is its tone with other people "unter aller Sau". I am glad that my children do not go to college in their area. So I will now only write comments on the excellent Mod by Chris10. Many thanks to him that he is so much work and leisure invesiert in a mod.

[Chris10]

@ H.Balck Thnx and I really appreciate your offer...I take that as a compliment
Since I need complete unit rosters 1939-1945 for Soviet and German equipment and a lot of Camouflage Units for the different SS Units and Air Wings and since mixing units of different style would look terribly cobbled together Iam afraid that it would not work out very well at this stage. However if you feel like contributing something (which always will be credited on release) I would humbly ask you if you could provide your SdKfz 7,SdKfz 9 and SdKfz 11 in vanilla scale and vanilla like skin to match up with the the overall style ? That would really be awesome since I would like to provide different transport to some equipment which is NOPURCHASE (8,8cm,15cm,17cm,21cm) and only given on gamestart and during campaign.
I could model them in MAX myself but it would take a lot of time and being such a minor detail would not really worth the effort of spending days and days on modelling 3 lorrys.

This is starting to get OT from Chris' mod. Let us know, Chris, if you would like the OT posts moved to a new thread or if it's OK to leave them as is.

Dont you worry...everything allright

So I will now only write comments on the excellent Mod by Chris10. Many thanks to him that he is so much work and leisure invesiert in a mod.

thank you very much Mike...feel free to comment whenever you feel like it...
btw Deutsch wird hier auch gesprochen sollte mal wirklich die eine oder ander englische Vokabel nicht greifbar sein

[Chris10]

ONE WORD TO HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS VERSUS GAMEPLAY

Due to the fact that a gameenigne is always only a very abstract simulation of a real situation it always comes with certain restrictions which have to be kept in mind especially when the game in question is a single player game and not a MP were human players can set up additinal rules in order to comply with historical facts.

Thats said it likely would bring some balance problems if I place the russian units 100% according to their initial location as the german player probably could not deliver a first blow strong enough and will not be able to advance close to Moscow before the big rain/mud comes.
After all I would like, at least theoretically, maintain a timeline which orientates a bit on the facts but what I dont want is to force the player to play the game in only ONE way.
There will be some triggers for counterattacks on closing in and taking certain objectives which will provoke massive counterattacks and there will be equipment numbes relativly close matching with the overall figures but after all I want to maintain operational freedom for the player in order to decide which approach to take. This is why I wanted it "Grand Strategy"...for the strategic and operational freedom.

So while I really try to set the historical frame, units and army strengths in relation to each other correctly its not necessarily the best approach to make everthing to 100%...
Its a game and as such first and foremost it has to be fun to play.

[VPaulus]

So while I really try to set the historical frame, units and army strengths in relation to each other correctly its not necessarily the best approach to make everthing to 100%...
Its a game and as such first and foremost it has to be fun to play.

1.000.000x this

[IainMcNeil]

HBalck you have been sent a private warning but I wanted this to be publicly visible.

We will not tolerate personal attacks. You have been rude and insulting to numerous people on the forums and if you do not change your attitude you will be banned again.

[HBalck]

We will not tolerate personal attacks. You have been rude and insulting to numerous people on the forums and if you do not change your attitude you will be banned again.

Than stop also Offenses against my work !!!

H.Balck

[flakfernrohr]

anything finished?

[komisar]

HBalck your Russian plans the establishment of the Army Group Center's wrong sometimes. The 267.ID was in June 1941 under the 4.Armee, LIII.Korps in space Brest-Litovsk. Divisional history and read the wiki.

Please don't read and trust wiki - many things there are incorrect. Read divisional history books or scientific elaborations - the 267.ID are under the command of General Lemelsens XXIV.mot Corps Pz.Gr.2. for the first days and for the transition for the river bug. Positioning in the west of 18th tank division near Pratulin (source: Heydorn: Der sowjetische Aufmarsch im Bialystoker Balkon, München 1989, S. 159ff.)
I dont have an Model of an Pe-8 yet - note this model are very expensively - it will come later correctly. It is not necessary to write it several times - presupposed you don't have Alzheimer's disease.
For the future - please read some books - don't trust wikipedia !!! And if you see an real historical error, quite possible even if I read most literature, please write the source not any Internet sources with your Smattering of knowledge ! Note I am a Historian on an german university, I am used to it to work scientifically, BTW more than your years.

H.Balck

H.Balck is correct on this. In the first days of the Operation Barbarossa the 267. Infanterie-Division (Gen. von Wachter commanding) was part of the von Schweppenburg's XXIV Corps and thus part of Guderian's Panzergruppe 2 of the Heeresgruppe Mitte in the Brest-Litovsk area. After the breakthrough it became part of the LIII Corps/IV. Armee.

I'm a newbie at this forum and perhaps haven't earned the credit to post anything substantial on this forum, but I'd like to say that I'm dismayed by H.Balck's lack of tolerance for any debate regarding his work. As a scholar you should be aware that free exchange of ideas and information is the foundation of the profession you are in and that a civilized (well-mannered) debate is the way to go. I find nothing in mike322539's post that is offensive to you personally and thus warrants none of your venom.

This said, I'm very enthusiastic about chris10's project and wish him a lot of patience and luck in his work. I will gladly participate in any beta-testing of this mod and look forward to the release.

Sincerely,
komisar

[VPaulus]

I'm a newbie at this forum and perhaps haven't earned the credit to post anything substantial on this forum,

It's not because of your number of posts that you'll have more or less credit in this community.
I don't have enough knowledge to know who his right or not. However I can only praise mike322539's and your posts. They may be divergent about the conclusions, but they are polite and correct in the manner how a debate should always be.

[Chris10]

uhhh...ehhhmm...when all the fighting has done and the dust has settled could I have my topic back pls...?...just asking...

This said, I'm very enthusiastic about chris10's project and wish him a lot of patience and luck in his work. I will gladly participate in any beta-testing of this mod and look forward to the release.

thank you very much for your kind words and your offer...I will keep that in mind for when the moment comes...

Chris I have some minors stuff done.
I could send you the stuff I have done for SS-GTPG(Equip/efx files and png.s) if you think they could help.
Dwight also has the files.
PM me w/ your email if you want the files.

sry..somehow I missed this...
Could you give me a little heads up of what "minor" stuff is included ?
The axis allies did not had a lot to offer in Russia...almost no armor,literally no modern equipment,few planes...
to be honest I havent even looked at the availabe vanilla minor units. Now with the map done I need a few days to recover.
Then I will do a list of the allied axis armys and look whats in the game and then take it from there...

[airbornemongo101]

Drop me a Pm and give me your e-mail.

I'll send you a link so you can look at the equip file,efx and the skins I used. Feel free to use what ever you need and/or want.

Some of the stuff is fancifull ( GTPG/SS-GTPG storyline wise),but some isn't.

They (the allied axis png's) all have the Balkanfeldkruez on them,but maybe you can use something.

[flakfernrohr]

HBalck your Russian plans the establishment of the Army Group Center's wrong sometimes. The 267.ID was in June 1941 under the 4.Armee, LIII.Korps in space Brest-Litovsk. Divisional history and read the wiki.

Please don't read and trust wiki - many things there are incorrect. Read divisional history books or scientific elaborations - the 267.ID are under the command of General Lemelsens XXIV.mot Corps Pz.Gr.2. for the first days and for the transition for the river bug. Positioning in the west of 18th tank division near Pratulin (source: Heydorn: Der sowjetische Aufmarsch im Bialystoker Balkon, München 1989, S. 159ff.)
I dont have an Model of an Pe-8 yet - note this model are very expensively - it will come later correctly. It is not necessary to write it several times - presupposed you don't have Alzheimer's disease.
For the future - please read some books - don't trust wikipedia !!! And if you see an real historical error, quite possible even if I read most literature, please write the source not any Internet sources with your Smattering of knowledge ! Note I am a Historian on an german university, I am used to it to work scientifically, BTW more than your years.

H.Balck

H.Balck is correct on this. In the first days of the Operation Barbarossa the 267. Infanterie-Division (Gen. von Wachter commanding) was part of the von Schweppenburg's XXIV Corps and thus part of Guderian's Panzergruppe 2 of the Heeresgruppe Mitte in the Brest-Litovsk area. After the breakthrough it became part of the LIII Corps/IV. Armee.

I'm a newbie at this forum and perhaps haven't earned the credit to post anything substantial on this forum, but I'd like to say that I'm dismayed by H.Balck's lack of tolerance for any debate regarding his work. As a scholar you should be aware that free exchange of ideas and information is the foundation of the profession you are in and that a civilized (well-mannered) debate is the way to go. I find nothing in mike322539's post that is offensive to you personally and thus warrants none of your venom.

This said, I'm very enthusiastic about chris10's project and wish him a lot of patience and luck in his work. I will gladly participate in any beta-testing of this mod and look forward to the release.

Sincerely,
komisar

komisar, with a wonderful post like that, you are already an asset to the forum. Always speak your mind and realize 99% of the people here try to help one another one way or the other and egos get put aside for the most part. Welcome, please come regularly.

[flakfernrohr]

Now with the map done I need a few days to recover.

This is not allowed! Verboten. Collective breath has been held too long. Only the romantic demands of a girlfriend or wife are allowed to interfere and then only on a temporary basis. LOL