Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

[deducter]

Thanks for your comments ivanov. Are there anything specific things that you like/dislike?

I haven't updated in a long time because of D3, but, I am committed to finishing this series from 1939-1945 along with finally finishing that mythical manual that I've promised for a while now. Fortunately in 1945 there won't be many changes, I'd probably just add Volkssturm (they would function effectively as conscripts, cheap throw-away units that are not meant to last) along with disabling some of the experimental German weapons and giving slight buffs to certain Soviet equipment (ISU-152 for instance). I will also revamp the recon system. The current system I fine is fine for playing purposes.

As for Afrika, the game may be balanced fairly well. The vanilla equipment file works well for MP and for the stock campaign, it is only in the long DLC playthroughs that its flaws start to show. But I'll probably do some changes to Afrika if there's general agreement among players about problems (e.g. the Tiger/Panther problem, the infantry problem for the DLCs).

[ivanov]

What I like most in your e-file, is that the Panthers and Tigers are so expensive. Because I don't have too much prestige saved, I'm better off using a mixture of medium tanks and the Stugs ( which are my favorite weapon of all times ). The general feel about of the DLC's is more historical and I like it a lot. It was a brilliant to make the infantry's APS soft targets and I am looking forward to see the changes of the recon units.

As to the 45 DLC, I would suggest you to increase the German infantry AT abilities. The average Red Army daily tank loses were roughly 65 machines in the period of 1943-44. In 1945 this figure nearly doubled and reached the number of 105 Soviet tanks lost on average EVERY DAY. Keep in mind, that the Soviet armoured forces at that time, reached the peak of their effectiveness and the German Panzerwaffe was for once defeated, also in terms of equipment quality. The high loses of Soviet tanks in 1945 were a result of fierce urban battles and the portable AT weapons systems like Panzerfaust or Panzershreck were responsable for about 20% of them. In my oppinion that would be a reason good enough to give the German infantry ( including Volkssturm ) a considerable buff in terms of the AT capabilities.

[deducter]

Are you using 2-3 star grenadiers 43 in close terrain against tanks? Because I find those units absolutely wreck Soviet tanks without problem, and I don't see any reasons for a buff. Yes, if you are constantly buying green infantry, results are not optimal, but I also think that's fine.

In 1944 and 1945 there are tons of defensive missions where you can position your infantry ahead of time and the 2 move of grenadiers is mostly irrelevant. That said, I might increase the ammo of German infantry by 1 in 1945.

[ivanov]

Well - all of my units are 3-4 stars and basically they wreck everything on their patch... The Panzergrenadieren had always good hard attack stats, but maybe it would be worthy to buff the regular infantry or Volkssturm, if you decide to introduce it? The DLC 45 is full of heavy Soviet tanks and assault guns and the German green infantry can't be used effectively agains them, even as a cannon fodder... I would prefer to wreck the Soviet armour with infantry in an urban combat, instead of throwing tons of Jagdtigers or Mauses in to the battle...

[deducter]

First off, my plans are that you won't be able to buy Maus, and you can only buy JagdTiger on the first scenario of 1945. Plus the JagdTiger, despite its insane stats (HA = 26, INI = 13) cost a freaking 2025 prestige. I doubt anyone can throw "tons" of JagdTiger into battle.

That said, I can perhaps up the HA of regular infantry to 5, along with Volkssturm (current plan is cost = 80, SA = 5, HA = 5, CD = 2, GD = 6). The Volkssturm are not meant to survive even a single scenario, but at a measly 80 prestige cost, you can buy those to desperately try to hold off the Soviet hordes. The main reason why I didn't want to up the HA of regular infantry is that it would mean SE Infantry 43 would have HA = 6, the magic number to gain the most benefit from experience. Thus SE Infantry 43 would be significantly superior to SE Grenadiers 43, since having one less HA is a trivial tradeoff for one more movement point. Although I guess by 1945, the end is nigh anyway, and buff like this I hope would not be unbalanced.

Edit: actually, I can have two types of Volkssturm, one that is just the regular infantry, and one that is like Volkssturm with Panzerfaust. The former will have better SA but worse HA, like SA = 6 HA = 4, while the latter would be opposite SA = 4 HA = 6.

[ivanov]

I understand your concerns regarding buffing the AT capabilities of the German infantry and in general I think you are right. I just thought that the 45 DLC is quite dull in terms of the equipement, so I was trying to think of something that would bring some historical flavour to the game. IMO adding the Volskssturm could be the right move - I the original DLC misses it severely. The idea of having two types of Volskssturm is also interesting - the DMP modes often have two types of infantry - for example a regular fallschirmjäger and fallschirmjäger with an-anti tank rifle. The thing is, that Volkssturm was really poor in terms of combat abilities, so it's real value in the game should be the low price. Because it does not appear in the original equipment file, you'd need to use some new unit graphics for it, right?

I still think that it would be maybe worth to buff the HA of regular infantry units, so they could slaughter the tanks in the close terrain. Even in the 1943 in have in my core roughly 50% of tanks and 50% of infantry and I would like to keep it this way even in 1945. What bothers me the most in the original game, is the omnipresence of tanks. Buffing slightly the infantry could maybe help to change it. Historically in 1945, despite the introduction of the new generation of tanks, the AT weapons and infantry were once again gaining the upper hand in the duel against the tank armour. I would like to see it in the game too...

[deducter]

The thing is, from my personal playtesting, the infantry in my mod absolutely demolish tanks already. The key is to overstrength the high INI infantry, and any of your own infantry that have +INI and +attack. This is easy to do if you don't equipment all your infantry with the best transports. This is doubly easy to do with SE infantry, which are very valuable now (cheap base cost, and most importantly, very cheap transport costs). In fact, just like in history, if you "unequip" or "downgrade" transports you will be better able to afford elite infantry. After all, German motorization suffered seriously from 1943 onwards. I am not quite sure how you are playing, but I cannot in good conscience buff a unit that is already very powerful in the hands of a good player, since this mod is meant to be a very challenging mod, inspired by history. Gameplay and balance comes first.

I shy away from introducing new entries and unit graphics because that could be incompatible with various other mods, and most importantly, would require the use of the GME to install this mod. Right now the process is simple, just copy and paste to install, copy and paste to uninstall. The Volkssturm will simply using the entries from the original Wehrmacht and Grenadier infantry, with adjusted stats of course.I added nopurchase flags to these units in 1943, but I will rename them and reenable them with new stats in 1945. Volkssturm are meant to be the German equivalent of conscripts, so yes, their real value will be their low price of 80 prestige. They absolutely are not meant to be a survivable unit. If left unprotected, one unit would be lucky to survive more than 2 attacks by the Russians, but if backed up by artillery and in close terrain, they can perform fairly well. You can throw them away just to buy time, or in the case of facing tanks in close terrain, to soften them up first for your elite infantry to finish off with no losses. However, given the experience on the Russian units, I've now decided to up the stats of the Volkssturm compared with my original plan so they are somewhat competitive.

If you watch my videos in 1942, I have approximately 1 infantry : 1.3-1.5 armor unit. And if you see how I do Moscow, Sevastopol Assault, you'll see infantry even in 1941/1942 dominate tanks in close terrain.

[ivanov]

As a self imposed rule, I don't overstrength the tanks and infantry while playing the DLCs ( in order to reflect the manpower and equipment shortages facing the Germans during the war ). The only units I overstrenght are Stugs and the AA.

At least I would suggest you to us a regular infantry graphics for the Volkssturm ( not panzergrenadier ), just to give it a "casual" look Those guys looked nothing like the regular army - they were more like militia type units.

As to the AT capabilities of the infantry, I've just read in "Blood, steel and myth" by G.Nipe, about the stance of the Das Reich Division against the main elements of the three Soviet tank corps on the 8th of July, during the Kursk battle. The thing is, that the Das Reich's units taking part in that combat were it's panzergernadir regiments ( the division's panzer regiment was missing ). At that time, the only AT wapon available to the German infantry were the magnetic mines, that had to be placed directly on the tank's armour ( the 50mm and 75mm guns of the panzerjager regiment also participated in the battle ). Of course fighting the tanks with magnetic mines required high determination and skill from the infantry, but the Das Reich was one of the elite SS divisions. On the 8th of July, the two panzergrenadier regiments managed to repluse masses of the Soviet tanks, without any advanced type of AT weapon, that could be used in the close combat. I can imagine, that a determined and well trained unit equipped with Panzerfaust, could simply slaughter the tanks in a simmilar situation. The only problem for the Germans, was that in 1945 there were very few such a units available to face the Soviet onslaught.

[deducter]

If I buff the attack of standard infantry even further, the problem becomes that they are too good, and the grenadiers are not very useful. The stats are also designed because of the new experience rules.

Some examples of infantry and the effects of experience
0 star Grenadier 43 INI = 4 SA = 6 HA = 6 GD = 10 CD = 4
3 star Grenadier 43 INI = 5 SA = 9 HA = 9 GD = 13 CD = 6

0 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 INI = 3 SA = 5 HA = 4 GD = 10 CD = 4
3 star Wehrmacht Infantry 43 INI = 3 SA = 7 HA = 6 GD = 13 CD = 6

0 star Fallschirmsjäger 43 INI = 5 SA = 7 HA = 3 GD = 12 CD = 5
3 star Fallschirmsjäger 43 INI = 6 SA = 10 HA = 4 GD = 15 CD = 7

0 star SMG Infantry 43 INI = 2 SA = 6 HA = 4 GD = 9 CD = 6
3 star SMG Infantry 43 INI = 2 SA = 6 HA = 6 GD = 12 CD = 9

The reason the standard infantry's stats are lower is that they have an extra movement point, which makes them far more tactically flexible. If their attack were better, there'd be no reason to get the grenadiers. This is actually a seriously flaw in the vanilla file, because I almost always get the Wehrmacht 43 infantry as opposed to the Grenadiers 43, because I consider the extra movement point far more valuable than the grenadier's extra 2 HA and 1 INI.

The problem is, if standard infantry gets more HA, then the SE infantry will get HA = 6, at which point say a 4 star SE infantry 43 would have HA = 10, compared to a 4 star SE grenadier 43 which would have HA = 11. You run into the situation where one type of unit is so clearly superior that there'd be no reason to get another. I try to make sure ALL units have a use, and there is no super unit anymore.

I also cannot change the equipment file based on the fact that you don't overstrength many of your units. Overstrength infantry can be very effective, but they can also be very expensive with good transports. Also overstrength infantry are not currently invincible, even against tanks in close terrain, and critically they can at least lose strength points. This way, we avoid a problem similar to that of the 4-star 14 strength Tiger/Panther tanks that plagued the vanilla file. I suspect you do have the prestige to do so if you want. It's interesting to note that I don't overstrength this because I playtest everything at low prestige settings, so I literally cannot afford overstrength most of the time. I only overstrength select infantry for the urban assault scenarios (Moscow, Sevastopol, Stalingrad).

So I don't see what the problem is considering your infantry is destroying tanks in close terrain as it is. More buffs risk turning infantry into a super unit with no real weaknesses, and I don't like that.

If you doubt the effectiveness of infantry, watch this video and see the fate that befalls all those T-34s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HOl_X57 ... ge#t=1807s

[ivanov]

I think we have misunderstood each other. I am not saying that the infantry is too weak - I was just throwing around the ideas, what would be the best way to enchance your e-file for the 1945 DLC. As I said - nothing interesting in terms of the equipment is going on in the original e-file for the last DLC, so I thought of the proliferation of the man portable anti tank weapons, as something characteristic for that period of war. But if buffing the infantry stats would be harmfull to the overall gameplay - I understand that it would be maybe inaceptable.

While we are here - I have never analized properly all the unit stats - what is really the difference between the ground defence and the close defence?

[deducter]

To be fair, I assume the players of my mod has a general understanding of how the game mechanics work. Perhaps this assumption is premature. There are a lot of details and subtleties in the rules for this game, but the close defense rule is probably the most important.

Close defense is the defense value against which infantry shoot in close terrain. In other words, the reason why infantry is so devastating against tanks in forests/swamps/cities is that the infantry attacks the very low CD (usually 2-3) value of the tanks. Compare this with the 10+ ground defense of the tanks, you can see how this is more effective. For a full listing of close terrain consult the terrain database in the game's library.

However, the key is to realize that infantry shoot against the CD of ANYTHING in close terrain. Whether its tanks, towed AT guns, artillery, or even other infantry. This is why urban warfare is so very bloody. All that infantry is shooting at the low CD value of your units, and unless you have artillery cover, you will incur tremendous losses. If you are clever, you can do stuff like force towed AT units into close terrain for your infantry to finish off.

[ivanov]

To be fair, I assume the players of my mod has a general understanding of how the game mechanics work. Perhaps this assumption is premature. There are a lot of details and subtleties in the rules for this game, but the close defense rule is probably the most important.

It hurts...

As I stated somwhere else - I know how the thing work, but I don't know why It's like with cars - most of the people know how to drive but they don't really know what makes the cars roll

So in another words - the close defence is taken under account when the unit is being attacked in the close terrain and the ground defence if the unit is defending in the open?

[deducter]

Close defense is something that only applies for infantry. If you attack a T-34 in a forest with a Panzer IVH, you still use GD for calculations.

If you attack a T-34 in a forest with an infantry, the infantry shoots at the T-34's close defense, while the T-34 shoots at the infantry's ground defense.

If you attack a Soviet Guards in a forest with an infantry, both of them shoot at each other's close defense.

In other words, infantry in close terrain always shoots at the close defense of the opposing unit. This is why infantry is so much more potent in close terrain.

[ivanov]

What do you think of increasing the CD values for the assault guns then? Right now the CD of the Stug IIIB is 1 and of StucH42 is 2 - less than CD of the Panzer IIIL, which is kind of ridiculous, as the Stugs, unlike the tanks, were most of all designed for the urban combat. I have an impression, that the current CD of the armoured vehicles reflects their armour thickness, while other factors ( like for example tactics ) should be also take under the consideration. A simmilar buff should apply of course to the Russian vehicles - for example currently the CD of Su-152 is only 2, while the one of Sherman tanks is 4. I have no idea where those stats are comming from, plus I think that your mod should encourage larger equipment diversity ( in this case encourage the use of assault guns over the tanks in the close combat ).

Maybe the German Stugs could have their CD increased to 3 and for example the Soviet Su-152 to 4 ( just like the KV tank on which chassis the gun was based ). Then maybe the increase of the AT stats of the infantry would be also more justifiable?

[deducter]

My general rule is to have the CD of assault guns be 1 less than than the chassis upon which they are based. The StuG IIIB (CD = 1) is based on the Panzer III chassis (CD =2).

Originally I actually planned on having the heavy Russian assault guns (SU-152, ISU-152) have CD = 3 or 4. I currently have then have 1 less CD than the chassis upon which they are based. My worry was that because of the skyhigh SA of the Soviet assault guns, infantry might suffer a bit too much against them in close terrain.

Keep in mind in the vanilla equipment file the SU-152 has CD = 0. So there's already quite a significant buff.

There's no point in increasing the CD of the assault guns in order to increase the HA of the infantry. That's circular logic.

The reason the Sherman tank has an ahistorical CD = 4 is because I wanted it to be a special close terrain vehicle so players will want to use them in the core. You can only capture 3 of them ever. In the stock equipment file, those are completely useless tanks, and usually players just disband them automatically. Now, the Shermans function like an improved Panzer IIIN, so there's a good reason to keep a Sherman or two around.

That said, I might be willing to increase the CD of the StuG IIIB, the StuH 42, and the SU-152/ISU-152 all by 1, since those are urban combat vehicles. All other assault guns can still have CD -1 compared to the chassis upon which they are based.

[ivanov]

There's no point in increasing the CD of the assault guns in order to increase the HA of the infantry. That's circular logic.

I thought you may say something like this, but it's not entirely true - imagine that if you increased the CD of Russian assault guns by 2, the HA of infantry by 1 and the CD of tanks stayed the same, then you'd get a different effect than at the beginning - in general the assault guns would be more valuable and the tanks more vulnerable in the urban combat - something that would resemble somewhat the actuall historical conditions. Anyway, if you decide to increase the CD of the assault guns it would be a big plus. Don't forget about the SU/ISU 122 - an urban combat vehicle aswell.

[deducter]

I haven't forgotten any units. I'm in the process of revising various units anyway, so this discussion is helpful. The SU-152/ISU-152 will receive a CD increase of 1. The ISU-122, to my understanding, was designed primarily as a tank hunter. Its CD will remain at its current value of 3 (was 1 in the vanilla file). The SU-122 was based on the T-34 chassis, so I'll have its CD remain at 2 like all the T-34s. Keep in mind even small changes can make a big difference, so for now I'll just make some increases and see how that works out.

Assault guns are already very valuable in urban combat, provided the player uses them correctly. The StuH 42 was already really good in the vanilla file, and it is even better in my mod. Now, the AI, on the other hand, is not very competent with its assault guns, but I'm not sure whether buffing them more is really appropriate.

[ivanov]

If you decide to increase the CD of assault guns, will it apply to all the years of DLC or only to the 1945? Historically, I don't see a reason why the assault guns should have a lower CD than the tanks ( maybe with the exception of open hull AT vehicles like Marder, Su-76 and the notoriously lacking machine guns Elefant/Ferdinand ). I understand your concerns regarding the gameplay/balance but the potential change needs be tested before the actuall implementation.

[deducter]

My changes will apply to all years.

Basically the rule is this: dedicated AT units like the Jagdpanther or the Jagdpanzer IV will have 1 less CD than their tank equivalents. A few units like the StuH 42 and the SU-152 will have improved CD because they are designed for close combat.

It shouldn't unbalance the game, it'll just make those units slightly tougher in close terrain. Elite infantry still won't have a problem destroying them, it might just take a bit longer.

[ivanov]

Basically the rule is this: dedicated AT units like the Jagdpanther or the Jagdpanzer IV will have 1 less CD than their tank equivalents. A few units like the StuH 42 and the SU-152 will have improved CD because they are designed for close combat.

It shouldn't unbalance the game, it'll just make those units slightly tougher in close terrain. Elite infantry still won't have a problem destroying them, it might just take a bit longer.

I think that sounds quite reasonable. When do you think your's e-file update will be ready?