Which way do I conform ?

[Polkovnik]

This situation came up a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure I know the answer but my opponent disagreed with me. I'm sure this has been discussed at length here before.



Which way does BG A conform ? I think left, as it is the shortest distance. My opponent said right, as bases in contact must remain in contact.



What about in this situation ? Now I would say it conforms to the right, as it must stay in front edge contact with BG Y.

[philqw78]

A conforms left, shortest move and the bases that were in comtact are still in corner to corner or frontal contact.

The second is still left for the reasons above. There is nothing about remaining in front edge contact.

[peteratjet]

However, if X were not present, Y would conform to its right, otherwise there would be no bases in front contact.

[philqw78]

Thats because there is a bit about conforming to overlap. If nobody is in frontal contact there is no overlap

[grahambriggs]

Thats because there is a bit about conforming to overlap. If nobody is in frontal contact there is no overlap

conforming is either to frontal contact or "overlap position". An overlap position surely exists whether or not another base is in frontal contact?

Given that that would be a nonsense, I believe the only way you can read the conforming rules is "conform to front edge contact of the bases you are touching, but if you can't do that conform to the overlap".

[lawrenceg]

Thats because there is a bit about conforming to overlap. If nobody is in frontal contact there is no overlap

conforming is either to frontal contact or "overlap position". An overlap position surely exists whether or not another base is in frontal contact?
.

According to the definition of overlap position on page 75, an overlap position exists only when another base is in frontal contact.

It would be useful if the "Overlap" entry in the glossary referred to page numbers and not just rule sections.

[grahambriggs]

Oh yes, you're correct. How weird - a very strange use of "position". So, according to the definition, a line of bases in contact with the enemy are all in overlap positions as well as fighting.

So in the last picture given, there are three enemy bases in contact with unit A to start with; 2 from X and 1 from Y. If A conforms to the left it is not in an overlap position relative to the base of unit Y (no friendly base in full front edge contact with that base from Y).

So does this mean that it conforms to the right as it must conform "to the enemy bases in contact"?

[lawrenceg]

Oh yes, you're correct. How weird - a very strange use of "position". So, according to the definition, a line of bases in contact with the enemy are all in overlap positions as well as fighting.

So in the last picture given, there are three enemy bases in contact with unit A to start with; 2 from X and 1 from Y. If A conforms to the left it is not in an overlap position relative to the base of unit Y (no friendly base in full front edge contact with that base from Y).

So does this mean that it conforms to the right as it must conform "to the enemy bases in contact"?

Possibly.

However, if that is the case, then in the same picture, if A was in column behind its rightmost file (in contact with both X and Y) it could never conform.

Or if in the first picture X had one more file facing the left hand file of A, then A could never conform.

In both cases this is because (whichever direction you conform) there will always be one enemy base that was initially in contact that A ends neither in frontal combat with nor overlapping. You have to conform "to the enemy bases in contact" not just to the BGs in contact.

I suspect what was intended is you conform the minimum so each of your bases either:

is not in combat at all
is in overlap
is overlapped
is lined up in frontal combat

and every enemy base that you initially were in contact with is now in combat (even if only via overlap).

However, that's not what the rules say.

Conforming is a perennial rule question. Hasn't it been sorted out in V2? Or failing that, in an FAQ?

[grahambriggs]

Don't know about v2 - don't think they considered it.

For a charge at an angle - so that the chargers front corners touch the enemy but not the front edge - I think the rules work if the charger conforms to the bases that they are physically touching. Sometimes though it look a little odd as they can end up shifting almost a whole base width to line up.

[peteratjet]

Don't know about v2 - don't think they considered it.

For a charge at an angle - so that the chargers front corners touch the enemy but not the front edge - I think the rules work if the charger conforms to the bases that they are physically touching. Sometimes though it look a little odd as they can end up shifting almost a whole base width to line up.

That would be simple to follow, and intuitive, but it's not what the rules say. You must move the minimum, while keeping the conforming battlegroup in contact. That can result in a base that was in contact at impact ending up as an overlap, and the base next to that won't be in combat at all. However, in practice it rarely makes much difference. A base that was ends up not even in overlap can be fed into the combat

[grahambriggs]

Don't know about v2 - don't think they considered it.

For a charge at an angle - so that the chargers front corners touch the enemy but not the front edge - I think the rules work if the charger conforms to the bases that they are physically touching. Sometimes though it look a little odd as they can end up shifting almost a whole base width to line up.

That would be simple to follow, and intuitive, but it's not what the rules say. You must move the minimum, while keeping the conforming battlegroup in contact. That can result in a base that was in contact at impact ending up as an overlap, and the base next to that won't be in combat at all. However, in practice it rarely makes much difference. A base that was ends up not even in overlap can be fed into the combat

The rules say: "At the start of the manoeuvre phase, the active player‟s battle groups already in close combat with enemy must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact".

The key being that you conform to the enemy bases that are in contact by using the minimum necessary move.

As others have pointed out, "conform" means either to front edge contact or as an overlap for a friends who is in front edge contact.

So, let's say that I charge two bases wide into an enemy BG which is 4 bases wide. I'll call the enemy bases ABCD, and use numbers to show where along the front I hit:

A1A2A3A4B1B2B3B4C1C2C3C4D1D2D3D4

Let's say i charge in at a very slight angle and hit point B1 and point C1. It may be that the shortest move is to move my bases into front edge to front edge contact with A and B. But the rule says I must pivot and/or slide by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact. So I have to line up against B and C, and likely be double overlapped.

[gozerius]

Been through this a hundred times. Look at the wonderful diagrams on pages 72, 87, 91 and 93. The pictures and captions are very clear on what is meant by conform to the enemy bases in contact. You will see that in some cases the minimum move required will push a base in front edge contact to the adjacent base because that is the shortest move to line up on an enemy base. It will still be in corner contact with the original base. Use the whole rulebook, not just a sentence fragment here or there.

In your photo, the correct conform is to the left.

[bbotus]

In your photo, the correct conform is to the left.

Yes...... and now it is 101 times .

Let's say i charge in at a very slight angle and hit point B1 and point C1. It may be that the shortest move is to move my bases into front edge to front edge contact with A and B. But the rule says I must pivot and/or slide by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact. So I have to line up against B and C, and likely be double overlapped.

If the charging unit was angled to move from A-side to D-side then, yes, the conform would put you in a double overlap.

But if your angle of charge was from D-side toward the A-side then you would end up fighting bases A and B. First, pivot and the left most base would be in contact with A2A3A4B1, so it would slide the minimum and be in full contact with base A. Page 70 says to conform to enemy bases in contact and it goes on to say that you line up in front edge contact with an enemy base or in an overlap position. It does not specify that you must remain in contact with the base you impacted. What is important is that all bases contacted in the impact phase get to fight in the melee phase. So in this case base C is overlapping the base that contacted C1 during impact and then slid to full contact with base B. That conforms to the rules.

[lawrenceg]

Page 70 says to conform to enemy bases in contact and it goes on to say that you line up in front edge contact with an enemy base or in an overlap position. It does not specify that you must remain in contact with the base you impacted. What is important is that all bases contacted in the impact phase get to fight in the melee phase. So in this case base C is overlapping the base that contacted C1 during impact and then slid to full contact with base B. That conforms to the rules.

It says your BG must conform to enemy bases in contact.

IT does not say each of your bases must conform to the enemy base in contact with it - as long as a base in the BG does then you meet the requirement for your BG to conform.

IT also says "conform" means in frontal combat, or in an overlap position.

IF your base is in frontal combat with an enemy base, then you have conformed to that enemy base.
IF your base overlaps an enemy base, then you have conformed to that enemy base.

However, if your base is overlapped by an enemy base, then you have not conformed to that enemy base. That means you have not conformed to all the enemy bases in contact and the conform move is not valid.

THis is confirmed, apparently, by the diagram, which does not show any enemy base in contact before the conform, which is overlapping after the conform. However, the bottom diagram does show one 2nd rank base which is in contact before the conform, but after the conform it is not in frontal combat and it has not been overlapped by the conforming base (though the front rank element is both). Hence there is an inconsistency between text and diagram. But in that case, which takes precedence - text or diagram?

[bbotus]

However, if your base is overlapped by an enemy base, then you have not conformed to that enemy base. That means you have not conformed to all the enemy bases in contact and the conform move is not valid.

Oh, good one. I had to think about that for a while. Re-reading page 70, it says to conform to the enemy bases "in contact" (my quotes). So for purposes of conforming, we ignore the other enemy bases in the BG(s) that are not in contact at impact and only conform to the ones in contact. So a base in impact contact could move to an overlap of an enemy base it contacted but still end up in full frontal contact with a enemy base that was not impacted.

I've found 3 threads discussing this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=6180
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=9302
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=9905
The second thread (9302) shows some disagreement amongst the authors.

[grahambriggs]

However, if your base is overlapped by an enemy base, then you have not conformed to that enemy base. That means you have not conformed to all the enemy bases in contact and the conform move is not valid.

Oh, good one. I had to think about that for a while. Re-reading page 70, it says to conform to the enemy bases "in contact" (my quotes). So for purposes of conforming, we ignore the other enemy bases in the BG(s) that are not in contact at impact and only conform to the ones in contact. So a base in impact contact could move to an overlap of an enemy base it contacted but still end up in full frontal contact with a enemy base that was not impacted.

I've found 3 threads discussing this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=6180
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=9302
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=9905
The second thread (9302) shows some disagreement amongst the authors.

Indeed, so I end up double overlapped. It's not the most clearly written rule. However, I find the conforming to the enemy bases in contact thing means that charging so you hit the enemy flush rather than at an angle is often better, so eliminates some potential cheese there.

I like the thread where the authors argue, and everyone else does, assuming you do conforms BG by BG. I can't see where the rules say that. They do say that the BGs in contact with the enemy conform but the sequence of play just says "conform troops in close combat to enemy". So as far as i can see, they all move at once. Which resolves a lot of silliness.