PBEM save blues

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:15 am

My apologies if this bug is already reported

when playing PBEM you may want to save the game part way through your turn
If you do this you cannot successfully reload the game
For example:
Saving mid way through the allied turn
On reloading the saved file you are prompted for the allied password - OK
then you see the allied pp allocation screen - BAD
you also see the axis country pp/oil totals etc - BAD
exit the pp allocation screen and the game locks with egg timer - BAD
This also applies during axis turns
I would have expected the game to continue from the point of the save!

this combined with the Bucharest oil bug makes the game almost unplayable, the only solution being to go back to the start of the turn IF you have a copy of the file.

Hopefully the patch to fix this will be soon?

firepowerjohan · Post by **firepowerjohan** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:49 am

davetheroad wrote:My apologies if this bug is already reported

when playing PBEM you may want to save the game part way through your turn
If you do this you cannot successfully reload the game
For example:
Saving mid way through the allied turn
On reloading the saved file you are prompted for the allied password - OK
then you see the allied pp allocation screen - BAD
you also see the axis country pp/oil totals etc - BAD
exit the pp allocation screen and the game locks with egg timer - BAD
This also applies during axis turns
I would have expected the game to continue from the point of the save!

this combined with the Bucharest oil bug makes the game almost unplayable, the only solution being to go back to the start of the turn IF you have a copy of the file.

Hopefully the patch to fix this will be soon?

The Oil bug will be fixed in next patch. The PBEM, we never thought that ppl would save a PBEM in the middle of a turn, but instead you should just use the auto generated save when you end turn and send it to your opponent. In fact, why should we allow PBEM games to be saved manually anyway since that only allows reloading.

rjh1971 · Post by **rjh1971** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:55 am

The Oil bug will be fixed in next patch. The PBEM, we never thought that ppl would save a PBEM in the middle of a turn, why would you?

What does the oil bug do?

About having the need to save in the middle of a turn, it is something very real and common when you're happily married and have kids. Wifes don't understand husbands playing silly wargames in front of the pc, a waste of time... LOL
Unfortunately and as much as I would have liked I still haven't had time to start a pbem.
So implementing this option to save and continue afterwards is really important imo.

Greetings.

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:29 am

The oil bug deducts a large and variable number of oil points from the axis stockpile if the allies occupy Bucharest. The stockpile can even go to a big minus number leaving all your fleets/planes/tanks stranded. This is a game breaker if you are winning as the allies as there is no point continuing.

I am surprised that it was not condidered that anyone would want to save during a PBEM turn. There are times when you just have to stop what you are doing e.g. 'er indoors wants to go to the supermarket NOW!

As such the save problem is not a bug but a oversight and ommission. It should be fixed but probably not as soon as the oil bug.

I have decided not to start any more games of any sort until the oil bug is sorted

dave

jdm · Post by **jdm** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:55 pm

We'll see what we can do on the saved games. I can see how it might be a problem.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:50 pm

I think it's good that you can't save a PBEM game during your turn and continue your turn if you reload. The reason for this is that cheating is very difficult if you can't reload.

If you can save when you want and reload to continue where you saved then you can make some attacks and save if all went well for you. Then you can continue and reload if you had bad luck with some attacks. This makes cheating very easy.

But if you can save only when your turn is finished then it's almost impossible to cheat. You have to perform ALL attacks before you can save. So if you reload then you have to start all over again.

I therefore think the PBEM is working well as is. Making it possible to save during your turn and continue it makes cheating too easy.

If you decide to add the chance to save DURING a turn then you should make a toggle to disable this function when the game is created (in the same window where you select random research, use of oil, game end in 1945 etc.).

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:13 pm

Sometimes you HAVE to save during a turn or restart the turn. Determined cheats can already replay a turn several times and send the best one to their opponent. Perhaps a save game counter so you can see how many times your opponent saved.

If you want to cut down on cheating you need to have real password protection first, otherwise a bad opponent is going to see all your forces, labs etc etc.

As far as I know tcpip play precludes cheating if you have the time to play that way.

Dave

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:44 pm

If it's possible to record the number of saved games a player did before he sent the moves to the other player then it will solve risk of cheating. When the other player opens the save game he will see a message saying the last save game was saved 1, 2, 7 or 65 times. Each player will know that if he receives a message saying the other player saved the game e. g. 20 times last turn the it's an indication he was cheating. If you get a message at the start of your turn the other player saved 1 (minimum possible) or 2 then it's an indication he did not cheat.

It should be easy to count the number of times the player has saved. You just store in the save game a variable who will increment with 1 each time a player saves and at the same time set the save number for the other player to 0.

But I wonder if Slitherine will spend time and effort for such a change if they have other and more important changes to make to the game. Time will tell I guess.

I want to make clear I trust people I play against and will not suspect any cheating unless my opponent is doing things I feel is impossible or he seems to be lucky turn after turn. CeaW is not a game you earn anything by winning. So people play for fun.

But I believe all online games are subject to cheating, especially games where you may score some rating. So the more that can be done to prevent cheating the better it is. You never know when you're playing against a cheater and I would hate to have wasted my time on such a game with this person. I'm a player who doesn't have to win at all cost. Sometimes it's fun to play a losing game you always learn something and will play better next time. Knowing the reasons you lost is a valuable experience indeed. But I want to lose to a better player and not to a player who cheated to beat me.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:01 am

If you made a copy of the saved game it would have the number of saves in it, so cheats would be able to bypass this just as easily I think.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:10 pm

I know that. That is one reason why I think the way it is now is fine. Now you can't save during your turn so you have to live with bad combat results. If you reload you lose all the good combat results as well.

vypuero · Post by **vypuero** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:17 pm

I agree - who the hell has so little time they can't finish one damn game turn all the way through? And if you get interrupted, so what? It doesnt go anywhere - it ain't realtime. Saving in the middle of the turn is a useless and counterproductive feature.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:07 pm

As it seems to have mixed reactions and would be quite a lot of work we'll leave this for now and wait for further feedback.

YohanPBEM2 · Post by **YohanPBEM2** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:14 am

There are only 2 real ways to handle this issue. One is by using a web based die roll integrated into the game. Thus I am playing IDG and start my turn. Things don't go so well and I bail and reload from the incoming email. No multiple saves as mentioned above but the web based die roll reports a bunch of rolls.

IDG questions this, I try to decipher what he is saying, and voila can't cheat.

The other option is for each turn of a saved game to be numbered by the game. So YohanvsIDG1, YohanvsIDG2... then if IDG reload from the email attachment it does not matter as that turn has already been opened 42 times!

This might be easier to program.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:23 am

This means you'd need to be connected to the net to play PBEM and probably anyone who can't play TCP/IP due to firewalls etc would then not be able to play PBEM

It also requires a server running somewhere doing the dice roll calculations, which is another issue!

YohanPBEM2 · Post by **YohanPBEM2** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:55 pm

test test test

PDiFolco · Post by **PDiFolco** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:19 pm

I don't play CEAW pbem, but have played lots of other games that way: to me it's kinda impossible to prevent cheating in a IGO/UGO game, so I don't think it's even worthwhile to take measures against - kind of the same issue than with DRM : that's only a pita for non-cheaters.

OTOH I do like to have mid-turn save features because I just can't always get enough time to play a turn, as other have pointed out. These saves should work just the same as solo saves (only be password protected). Sure CEAW turns are rather short and it's not of as much use as in say WitP or a big TOAW scen, but yet...

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:23 pm

Paranoia rules
I swear I posted in this thread at between 8 and 9 this morning but my post has dissappeared, whats going on?

Dave

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:26 pm

As the above post seems to work (for now!) what I was saying was

on reflection just leave it as it is as solving the problem is just too much work.

Dave

Hold on, whats this invalid session message that keeps appearing?????

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:44 pm

Sorry - we are trying to update the forum and it seems to have introduced some bugs. Please post any issues you are having to the web design feedback forum - viewforum.php?f=31

We know that the text is the wrong colour on new messages and usernames. Disappearing posts seem to have occured for a couple of people. Please report every unusual instance so we can try and track it down.

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:46 pm

OK, I was just going to moan about the grey on grey text !

Dave

PBEM save blues

PBEM save blues

Re: PBEM save blues