Plane spotting

[El_Condoro]

Planes should reveal the terrain for the current turn when overflying an area...as by now they only reveal their spotting range hexes on arriving at their destiny hex...this is pretty unrealistic and should be changed

Although it is true the pilots would see things in their field of vision all along their flight path (they don't close their eyes and open them when they arrive at their destination) I believe the current system is better because:
1. It doesn't seem in keeping with WW2 communications technology that those pilots can relay all enemy unit movements along their flight path back to ground units who can act upon it. That was the role of specialised recon planes, as I understand it.
2. From a game perspective, a fighter (or any plane) can fly the length of a front line and display many/most/all enemy units. No need for ground recon units and surprise would become (unrealistically) much harder to achieve.
If specialised air recons (Storch et al) were employed I could see a need for a change but not for combat aircraft.

[Chris10]

Planes should reveal the terrain for the current turn when overflying an area...as by now they only reveal their spotting range hexes on arriving at their destiny hex...this is pretty unrealistic and should be changed

Although it is true the pilots would see things in their field of vision all along their flight path (they don't close their eyes and open them when they arrive at their destination) I believe the current system is better because:
1. It doesn't seem in keeping with WW2 communications technology that those pilots can relay all enemy unit movements along their flight path back to ground units who can act upon it. That was the role of specialised recon planes, as I understand it.
2. From a game perspective, a fighter (or any plane) can fly the length of a front line and display many/most/all enemy units. No need for ground recon units and surprise would become (unrealistically) much harder to achieve.
If specialised air recons (Storch et al) were employed I could see a need for a change but not for combat aircraft.

All German Aircraft were radio equipped and used these radios to comunicate troop movement so the contra arguments do not really hold...
German long range operational recon used Ju-88, Bf-110, Do-17 and for close recon the FW-189 etc..the belief that the Storch was a military recon plane is one of the greatest misconceptions around here and in other WWII forums...
The Storch was the standard courierplane but was used as well as a -conduit -ambulance and surveillance plane (police/anti-partisan activity in occupied territory)...It was NOT a reconplane to penetrate enemy territory cause it was a sitting duck.
Personally I would go back to original PG rule were planes reveladed complete flying path and spotting range to both sides of their path-while reduced to 1 hex each side on cloudy weahter and down to flying path on rainy weather ...it helps the hopeless Ai too and feels more realistic

2. From a game perspective, a fighter (or any plane) can fly the length of a front line and display many/most/all enemy units. No need for ground recon units and surprise would become (unrealistically) much harder to achieve.

Who would do this anyway ?
I think its not the right approach to always think what somebody may do to exploit a mechanic....if people wanna cheat they do anyway or reload when ambushed...and honestly I fail to see why somebody would waste 1 or 2 of his fighters to do this when he knows the enemy dive bombers will go for his Truck Mounted Artillery and front lines are almost never linear so ther is no "fly the length of a front line" and fighters do no fly curves with phased movement so in order to "fly the imaginary front length" you need to move the fighter to a horizontal or vertical hex on the border and then do just what you said...well..I cant see that happen cause the next turn the front may have moved...
In vanilla Panzer General recons were not useless at all but still planes revelaed the area they have overflown for that particular turn,the planes spotted the bulk of enemys and then I moved the recon to fine spottin..this feels natural... and honestly I never used planes to exploit their spotting as I needed the fighters to give cover to my dive bombers,trucks and other vulnerable units

[deducter]

Allowing planes to spot along their flight path is too powerful for MP. Completely unacceptable. Maybe in SP it might be okay.

[Chris10]

Allowing planes to spot along their flight path is too powerful for MP. Completely unacceptable. Maybe in SP it might be okay.

why should it be to powerful if both sides do it ?..Panzer General used it and it never harmed gameplay in any way so I completely fail to see the argument what would be wrong with it...all kinds of planes (bombers,fighters,destroyers) were used for recon too
Its actually only one more tactical level for MP
> waste a fighter on simply spotting or use it to cover/attack/support something
th terrain is only revealed for the current turn anyway so things can be different next turn

the current system of "I dont see nothing along my flight path" is just against any common sense and logic neither could be justified with gameplay if both sides enjoy the benefits

[deducter]

Having played a ton of MP (100+ games), I can tell you right now that the game is unplayable if spotting is trivial. One of the hardest things about MP is uncertainty, and you never have enough information. Making information trivial to obtain would make the MP game much less interesting for advanced players.

[Chris10]

Having played a ton of MP (100+ games), I can tell you right now that the game is unplayable if spotting is trivial. One of the hardest things about MP is uncertainty, and you never have enough information. Making information trivial to obtain would make the MP game much less interesting for advanced players.

Panzer General MP has not been less fun only cause planes were spotting..actually it requiered moving things around..I do disagree completely with you..on bigger maps plane spotting was basic to find a bulk of enemys and then moving the recon
Well..I think everybody made some valuable points..lets see what comes out of this
Maybe a compromise of 1 hex revelaed (exact flying path) or even better the ability to adjust this in the gamerules.pzdat so it could be amended to bigger maps were this would become mandatory if you dont wanna play completely blind

The small vanilla maps should not be the base to decide over this..I understand that if the map is to small plane spottingis very powerful and boring for MP

[deducter]

This game is not Panzer General. I've never played MP for Panzer General, so I won't comment about that game. But the only way to get a feel for MP for this game is to play it, not use your past experience with Panzer General as a guide.

Simple example: consider the map Hylan Valley. Position a plane in the northernmost part of the map, position a plane in the southernmost part of the map. Fly them together towards the center. If fighters use their full 2-hex radius spotting, in 1 turn, you can reveal basically the ENTIRE disposition of the enemy force, leaving no mystery left. You basically will be playing with FOW turned off at this point. Such a technique can be done on pretty much every map.

Exact flying path reveal might be acceptable.

[robman]

Besides flight path and hex range, accuracy could also be a variable. I vaguely remember that in PG, planes had only a 50% chance of spotting submarines. Even if I don't remember that correctly, this is still an interesting variable that could be introduced for spotting in PzC, especially for airplanes. And if spotting by fighters and other combat aircraft was "spotty," then the introduction of recon aircraft with greater spotting range and accuracy might make sense. The recon planes need not be Storchs, of course. I can even imagine air units switching between "combat" and "recon" mode.

[dks]

Simple example: consider the map Hylan Valley. Position a plane in the northernmost part of the map, position a plane in the southernmost part of the map. Fly them together towards the center. If fighters use their full 2-hex radius spotting, in 1 turn, you can reveal basically the ENTIRE disposition of the enemy force, leaving no mystery left. You basically will be playing with FOW turned off at this point. Such a technique can be done on pretty much every map.

very good point deducter. not only would FOW be drastically compromised in the game, units types become almost worthless. ((almost)) I say. the AAA Flaks would be of less value along with the ground recon unit. the enemy artillery then becomes more vulnerable to ground attack because all have eyes. then everything snowballs (back) to what PG was and what PzC has avoided. then comes tactics and strategy going backward. just my 2 cents and humble opinion.

[ivanov]

I am sorry to interrupt, but how this discussion is related to the possible AI improvements? This is an elite thread started by the main developer, with an exact purpose. Let's try to keep it that way and for the discussion about possible improvements of the game's mechanics, let's start some new threads ( or use the existing ones ).

I don't mean to be rude, I just think that we should respect this Rudankort's initiative. For the common good

[El_Condoro]

Split off from AI discussion

[Zhivago]

What about creating a plane that is strictly a recon plane? No attack values, just recon?

[El_Condoro]

On a related but different topic, if planes get the ability to spot along their whole flight path, perhaps all AA units along the flight path (in range and with ammo) should get a free attack as it flies over.

[dks]

On a related but different topic, if planes get the ability to spot along their whole flight path, perhaps all AA units along the flight path (in range and with ammo) should get a free attack as it flies over.

great idea! if spotting is increased for planes this would equal the odds and put risk back into flying over enemy zone. AA would definately be more valuable. also thinking along the area of where the AI goes after recons on the ground, same would be for air recons.

[Chris10]

Split off from AI discussion

An I wondered where all the posts had gone to

Simple example: consider the map Hylan Valley. Position a plane in the northernmost part of the map, position a plane in the southernmost part of the map. Fly them together towards the center. If fighters use their full 2-hex radius spotting, in 1 turn, you can reveal basically the ENTIRE disposition of the enemy force, leaving no mystery left. You basically will be playing with FOW turned off at this point. Such a technique can be done on pretty much every map.

...Do that and I kick your fighters asses with my center placed AAs and then finnish them off with my fighters and on that base take the air superiority which ulimately will result in hacking your attack forces into pieces by bombing them...as well you can assume I had placed fighters over the center and you fall into a surpise attack loosing 1 unit directly and the other due to AA and fighter attack...(btw if the unit gets destroyed the revealed terrain becomes invisble again)...so eventually it worthed you nothing to reveal my positions for the flight or turn being as you jeopardized your chances of gaining air superiority and maybe I move some stuff forward to put you an ambush...using planes for spotting can be very costly and actually there are more tactical and strategic considerations to bear in mind cause even if you not loose both fighters it could cost you big prestige to preserve them which may cost you the victory in the end ...what I wanna say with this is that if people know about plane spotting they will play different and deploy stuff different and that doesnt mean it becomes easier...you really have to think things thru before making assumtions...any tactic used by people to spot with their planes in PG has found a counter tactic by other MP players which resulted very often in very intensive air warfare and made the MP even more interesting ...

Besides most people play SP anyway ..just sayin

[soldier]

...whopping MP greenhorn blunder...Do that and I kick your fighters asses with my center placed AAs and then finnish them off with my fighters and on that base take the air superiority which ulimately will result in hacking your attack forces into pieces by bombing them...as well you can assume I had placed fighters over the center and you fall into a surpise attack loosing 1 unit directly and the other due to AA and fighter attack...(btw if the unit gets destroyed the revealed terrain becomes invisble again)...so eventually it worthed you nothing to reveal my positions for the flight or turn being as you jeopardized your chances of gaining air superiority and maybe I move some stuff forward to put you an ambush...using planes for spotting can be very costly and actually there are more tactical and strategic considerations to bear in mind cause even if you not loose both fighters it could cost you big prestige to preserve them which may cost you the victory in the end ...what I wanna say with this is that if people know about plane spotting they will play different and deploy stuff different and that doesnt mean it becomes easier...you really have to think things thru before making assumtions...any tactic used by people to spot with their planes in PG has found a counter tactic by other MP players which resulted very often in very intensive air warfare and made the MP even more interesting ...

All conjecture. It was a lot more risky in PG because you could stop a fighter with ZOC. You can fly right past in PzC unless you run directly into opposition which is far less likely (6 times less likely). Also fighters had spotting of 3 in PG so you spot maybe 50 or so hexes by doing a fly by.
I also think air combat is much improved in PzC not the other way around

[Razz1]

There are spotting planes in the AT and AA Mod.
They have a short range and are very expensive.
If found they will get shot down in two attacks.
Good for larger maps.
If a map is designed correctly with Prestige being constrained, then it is very difficult to justify purchasing a scout plane.
The benefits of spotting artillery is a great advantage.

You may want to load up the mod and try it out.

[Chris10]

All conjecture. It was a lot more risky in PG because you could stop a fighter with ZOC. You can fly right past in PzC unless you run directly into opposition which is far less likely (6 times less likely). Also fighters had spotting of 3 in PG so you spot maybe 50 or so hexes by doing a fly by.
I also think air combat is much improved in PzC not the other way around

Are you aware that ZOC can be enabled for air units in the gamerules.pzdat ?

There are
If a map is designed correctly with Prestige being constrained, then it is very difficult to justify purchasing a scout plane.

Thats exactly why I say people would not even try to exploit their planes as spotters positioning them over enemy key position as they get shot down which may cost them air superiority hence probably the entire game...with ZOC enabled people would use their planes different as they are more likely to fall into a surprise encounter and my guess is its not enabled by default cause it raises the difficulty considerably in the air...
plane spotting along their path with ZOC enabled makes the game more difficult and adds one more level to the strategic and tactic considerations to bear in mind but on the other hand gives a bit more of knowledge due to spotting...
In serious MP maps one is the defender anyway and its more or less clear where his positions are (citys,forts,airfield..the usual setting of AT/Inf...Arty behind/AA next..blablabla...)around his victory hexes...this is no rocket science..and the self propelled stuff can move after being spotted...and this way nice distraction deployments/movements can be made too while outmanuerveing with another task force to get inot the enemys flanks while he moves forward etc etc...plane spotting adds depth, distraction and realism

[Razz1]

If I remember correctly the scout planes move like recon units do now. They have medium range and I think less fuel.

Their visibility is 3

[deducter]

Theorycrafting is cute, but you don't get a sense of what things are like until you get into the trenches. And not with a previous game and other maps, but this game. I know soldier has plenty of experience, what do you think about MP balance? I think for the most part it is very good.

I regularly spend 500-2000 prestige on recon units, depending on the map, the situation, merely to get incomplete information. I would easily spend the same amount of prestige on recon planes to get near complete information.

Prestige is tight on every MP map except Iron Cross, Red Star.