A complicated situation...

[pptheos]

Today we had a rather complicated situation.

One end of the British line was defended by a unit of Line Infantry (Average, Drilled, with skirmisher attachment) in extended line and a unit of Light Dragoons (Average, Drilled).
The French are trying to flank them. They declare an assault on the Light Dragoons with a unit of Hussars (Superior, Drilled, with attached officer).
They also assault the British infantry with a unit of Light Infantry (Av, DR) in tactical formation.
The British commander chooses to stand and fight as he is in both situations.
The Light Dragoons counter-charge and meet the Hussars. The British Line infantry passes 2 hits in defensive fire. The French Light Infantry drops one cohesion level to "disordered" but they pass their CT so they move into contact with the British line infantry.

In the Combat phase:
The active player (French) chooses to start the combat adjudication with the cavalry vs cavalry.


The French reroll 1s and 2s (superior+officer). They inflict 6 hits (all dice).
The British inflict only 1 hit out of 4. They become broken and they retire 7 MU.
The French pursuit by 4 MU. They contact the British infantry that is already in contact with the French Infantry. The distance is more than half the pursuit move so the rules say that the combat will take place in the next turn.
However the reaction has to be resolved this turn. This is where it starts getting complicated. We assumed that the infantry half-line would have a chance to defensive-fire. Unfortunately the British a) lost a CT to stand and fight and dropped one cohesion level and b) did not pass any hits on the hussars so the later moved into contact with the infantry.


Next we move on to the combat of infantry vs. infantry. It was not clear to us if the combat should include the hussars simultaneously or not. We assumed that the Hussars should resolve their combat against the infantry next turn.
So the combat was adjudicated taking into account only infantry vs. infantry.
The British passed 2 hits vs 4 hits from the French.
The British dropped another 2 levels and Broke.


The British, being in contact with cavalry at the moment they broke, were destroyed.

I am not sure if this sequence was correct, please comment if you see anything wrong!

[donm]

First question.

Why are the British cavalry only throwing 4 combat dice?

Surely it should be 6 each.

Secondly.

Why are you re-rolling for an attached officer. Table on last page of rules says General leading.

Don

[micheni1970]

the british cavalry is at skirmish formation so it is the "all other troops or situations" in the combat table.
as for the brigade officer attachment , on page 89 under officers it says " ...he behaves in every way like a division commander except that he has no command points and only affects and may not leave the unit he has been attached to."
also at page 66 under casualties to commanders it says "...whenever a unit led by a commander takes 3 or more hits ..... the player causing the hits tests immediately to see if he has injured the commander."
a brigade commander is concidered leading the unit.
our problem is how to resolve the combat between the british extended line and the french light infantry after the french hussars pursued and contacted the british

[BrettPT]

I believe you do all of the combats before doing any combat resolution.
If you look at the action sequence table in the QRS, this seems reasonably clear.

So after the cavalry fight, you should have moved on to rolling the dice for the infantry combat.

After the infantry had fought, you do combat resolution for both units.

Following the steps in the book:

(1) Broken troops move first - so the British Lt Dragoons run

(2) Pursuit of Routers next - French Hussars pursue into the British infantry, who (pg 66) respond to this

(3) British infantry are wavering, so must first take a CT for being charged while wavering. If they fail this test they break and are destroyed (in contact with cavalry)
(4) If still standing, the British infantry declare whether they will 'stand and shoot' or 'form square' in response to the cavalry hitting them.
(5) If the British form square they are placed in square. If they stand and shoot, they just stand (you cannot shoot pursuers - see pg 66)
(6) The British infantry take a second CT for being charged by cavalry in the open while not in square. If they fail they break and are destroyed.

(7) back to the combat resolution table, the British infantry, if still alive, now carry out their 'retire wavering' move. The French infantry may pursue (but not the cavalry who have already had their pursuit.

(8) The British infantry take a CT for seeing the Lt dragoons break - if they were within 4MU of ther Lt Dragoons when the cavalry broke.

As you see, doing resolution after all combat solves one of your problems, but we still have a tricky situation because pursuit happens after each retirement, not after all retirements.

A relatively easy fix - just play that all pursuits take place after all retirements. Unless there are un-anticipated side effects of doing it this way, this would be a useful errata.

Cheers
Brett

(5

[SirGarnet]

I believe you do all of the combats before doing any combat resolution.

(2) Pursuit of Routers next - French Hussars pursue into the British infantry, who (pg 66) respond to this

I think you are right that this is resolved immediately upon the pursuit, before proceeding to the next outcome.

(3) British infantry are wavering, so must first take a CT for being charged while wavering. If they fail this test they break and are destroyed (in contact with cavalry]
. . .
(6) The British infantry take a second CT for being charged by cavalry in the open while not in square. If they fail they break and are destroyed. )

Do you recall that other thread on breaking and making a rout move (I forget which title-thread titles are so often teasers rather than informative) where IIRC the conclusion was that breaking before actual combat (in that case a converted charge rather than pursuit move) means they make their rout move first and the cavalry have to catch them? If so the pursuers complete their pursuit move and if they contact yet again that combat is deferred to next turn because pursuit combat can only happen once.

(7) back to the combat resolution table, the British infantry, if still alive, now carry out their 'retire wavering' move. The French infantry may pursue (but not the cavalry who have already had their pursuit.

Wavering retirements are done after broken retirements, so that makes sense, but since pursuit can follow combat and there there are two rounds of combat for the unit (the maximum) that means two possible pursuits unless there is a one-pursuit rule (which I have not noticed).

[donm]

the british cavalry is at skirmish formation so it is the "all other troops or situations" in the combat table.

I am sorry but I think you are wrong, top of page 56

Infantry or cavalry in Tactical or extended line except irregular light cavalry 6 dice for a small unit. ( is not the unit of British light cavalry in extended line)

Under 'All other troops' etc it lists only Light Infantry entirely in skirmish formation.

Also see page 107 'Skirmishers'. third point. Units of regular light cavalry deployed in single rank (Extended Line).

As the default to a charge on the British light cavalry is evade, they would need to pass a CT to countercharge and would evade if this test were failed.

I accept the commander leading the unit as per page 60. Yet another confusion between wording within the rules and the QRS tables at the back ( more for the errata list.)

Don

[BrettPT]

Do you recall that other thread on breaking and making a rout move (I forget which title-thread titles are so often teasers rather than informative) where IIRC the conclusion was that breaking before actual combat (in that case a converted charge rather than pursuit move) means they make their rout move first and the cavalry have to catch them? If so the pursuers complete their pursuit move and if they contact yet again that combat is deferred to next turn because pursuit combat can only happen once.

I think there is a subtle difference between 'charging' as a pursuit, or in the charge phase.

You are correct for an assault in the assault phase - if a unit breaks, it runs. The test(s) for the unit being charged take place before the assaulting unit is moved. The charging unit then moves its charge move forwards to see if can now contact the fleeing enemy.

However the pursuit rules are a little different. Tests by units that are hit by pursuing troops are only triggered by being "contacted" by pursuers - ie the tests take place after the pursuing unit has moved and contacted the new target. If the new target then fails any CTs required, it will do a rout move (or be destroyed if infantry facing mounted). The pursuing unit will not then move any further or pursue again - its original pursuit ended when it contacted the new enemy and you ony get a single pursuit move.

Not sure if this is intentional or not, but it is how it reads to me ...

[SirGarnet]

I think there is a subtle difference between 'charging' as a pursuit, or in the charge phase.

You are correct for an assault in the assault phase - if a unit breaks, it runs. The test(s) for the unit being charged take place before the assaulting unit is moved. The charging unit then moves its charge move forwards to see if can now contact the fleeing enemy.

However the pursuit rules are a little different. Tests by units that are hit by pursuing troops are only triggered by being "contacted" by pursuers - ie the tests take place after the pursuing unit has moved and contacted the new target. If the new target then fails any CTs required, it will do a rout move (or be destroyed if infantry facing mounted). The pursuing unit will not then move any further or pursue again - its original pursuit ended when it contacted the new enemy and you ony get a single pursuit move.

Not sure if this is intentional or not, but it is how it reads to me ...

Yes, that makes sense, but where does it say that a unit can only pursue once? In the scenario you mentioned, there is no combat. But if there is combat, why could there not be a second pursuit as part of the immediate Outcome?

[BrettPT]

Yes, that makes sense, but where does it say that a unit can only pursue once? In the scenario you mentioned, there is no combat. But if there is combat, why could there not be a second pursuit as part of the immediate Outcome?

Page 22, The last sentance under The Combat Phase: "In a few cases there may be a unit that will fight a second Combat Phase, but no unit will ever fight 3 times in one move"

Page 25, 2nd bullet point "Repeat these 3 steps [fight combat, outcome move & spend cavalry] once only for pursuing units if allowed."

Page 55, under The Combat Phase: "A second Combat Phase may occur if any unit pursues into contact with a different enemy in the first half of its pursuit move"

Page 66 under Pursuits "... another Combat Phase occurs between the contacting units. Only one additional round of combat can take place ..."

Take all these together (especially the page 25 refence) and it seems pretty clear to me that you can only pursue once.

Cheers
Brett

[SirGarnet]

If there can be 2 victorious combats per turn, then having two pursuits is natural as the Outcomes.
The page 22, page 55, and page 66 quotes make it clear there is a cap of 2 combats per turn, but don't touch on pursuit.
Page 25 in the actual sequence of play says we repeat the 3 steps once. Second combat is followed by second pursuit. Whether or not the second pursuit contacts within half move or not does not matter since the resulting combat must be resolved the next turn due to the restrictions above.

[BrettPT]

Hi Mike

I see your point. However if you were allowed 2 pursuits, then it follows that it would be entirely possible to hit new targets within half the pursuit distance each time, leading to three overall combats.

It woudl be better if it simply said "You only pursue once in a turn", however as you point out, I cannot find this in the rules either.

One to add to the FAQ list Terry?

Cheers
Brett

[SirGarnet]

I see your point. However if you were allowed 2 pursuits, then it follows that it would be entirely possible to hit new targets within half the pursuit distance each time, leading to three overall combats.

I believe that is already precluded by the strict prohibition on more than two combats in a turn. Once you smash both lines of enemy brigades in turn and pursue smack into their reserve line the Phase ends and Combat necessarily occurs next turn the same way as if you went over half you first pursuit move to contact.

The rules even if hard to navigate are consistent.

The non-mechanical reasons I can think of to bar further pursuits would be because the victors would be too fatigued to continue after their lightning victories (which seems unrealistic unless they are bereft of fighting spirit), to regroup (which should be a command option or CMT), or to give the other side a fair chance to shoot/assault the unengaged victors as they sit on their laurels. There may well be mechanical reasons, but, since the next turn combat after a second pursuit seems no different to me from that following a first pursuit, I am assuming none for now.

[pptheos]

So what do other people think?
Cavalry in tactical formation has any dice advantage over cavalry in skirmish formation or not?
We assumed that cavalry in extended line refers in non-skirmished cavalry (e.g. heavy) .

[SirGarnet]

Regular Light Cavalry must be in Extended Line to skirmish and don't lose dice for doing so. They do suffer a negative POA for close combat skirmishers, so hit the enemy 1/3 less often.

They can evade if charged, but must pass a CT to counter-charge (or to initiate an assault against the Tactical Cavalry).

[pptheos]

thanks

[terrys]

Regular Light Cavalry must be in Extended Line to skirmish and don't lose dice for doing so. They do suffer a negative POA for close combat skirmishers, so hit the enemy 1/3 less often.

They can evade if charged, but must pass a CT to counter-charge (or to initiate an assault against the Tactical Cavalry).

This is correct.

I see your point. However if you were allowed 2 pursuits, then it follows that it would be entirely possible to hit new targets within half the pursuit distance each time, leading to three overall combats.

It would be better if it simply said "You only pursue once in a turn", however as you point out, I cannot find this in the rules either.

You are allowed 2 puruits per turn - but if the second pursuit contacts enemy, that combat is resolved during the following turn regardless of whether or not it contacts within the first half of the move. The retriction on a unit only being allowed to fight 2 combats in a single move is sacrosanct.

All combats must be completed before any outcome moves are made.

[Chasseur]

Hi pptheos,

Minor issue, but the Cavalry cannot make flank contact with the British Infantry as shown in your photo, because of where they start (see page 33). They should have been moved so that some part of the Cavalry front edge contacts the front right corner of the British Infantry. From the look of the photo they should have had enough movement to do so.
In a situation where the Cavalry could not wheel enough (first half of move only) to then make legal contact with the British Infantry (not your situation), they would then have to pursue the original Broken Cavalry.

Note that this does not change your questions or the previous answers in circumstances where the Cavalry had contacted the British line in pursuit.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[pptheos]

Thanks John, this really healps and also makes sense!
After all this is why the Light Dragoons stayed and fought: they sort of sacrifised themselves to protect the infantry. If they had not countercharged, the French houssars would be otherwise able to complete their assault move and charge the infantry.