buildings

[deadtorius]

Ran into a question in our last game regarding buildings.

Entering a building. Page 76 says that entering a building requires a CMT unless you are in March Column and moving along a road.
However page 76 talks about occupying a building treating it as rough terrain but does not mention anything about CMT's.

Page 77 talks about entering a building and Defending it requires you to pass a CMT, unless you are in column and were passing through and decide to defend the building instead, then it looks like you just do it.

So do you need to pass a CMT to occupy a building if you are not marching along a road when you enter it? I thought you could enter and occupy but only had to CMT to defend it. Might need to be addressed in the FAQ.

[hazelbark]

Had the same questions in a game today. Do I know you?

p 76 a CMT to enter "building". Since that is an area feature. Presume it means enter by any means.

p 77 "on passing a CMT to enter" you can automatically defend.

Looks like entering needs a CMT unless you are marching along a road in march column. Note:does it matter if the road runs "next to the buildings" and not through them? p 95 says roads never have to pass through. So perhaps the Q&A will allow the march column on a road touching a building to move into and get the free deployment.

It looks clear that you need a CMT to enter unless march column. In our game, which I call Verdun 1812. The French were determined to hold a building and my Russians were determined to take it. It consumed an entire French Division. It seems if you plan to keep sending in reinforcements to hold a building you need to have them in march column to minimize luck.

[hazelbark]

So the building would be a salient that the French had to defend, but the build was overly exposed because the Russians were attacking.

I found it pretty easy to move up and concentrate a huge amount of fire on the building, making it a death zone. Some one commented how can you hold Hougmont versus a Corps if you can get shot out like this.

I believe we got it right.

Defenders fire out with 4 dice at every one capable of firing at the builidng. When disordered we removed the 1 per 3 assuming that still matterd.

But 2 infantry at close range and an artillery battery at medium was still hugely effecting needs 5s or 6s respectively. Even limiting each to 4 dice plus artillery attachments (each infantry had one). Once the firing began at close range the massive number of hits created the drop two levels from firing. It becomes a death trap very rapidly.

So it occured it may be desirable to have scenario rules for significant buildings like Hougmont, The Grannary a Essling etc, that you can never double drop. Or you cannot break a unit defending a strong building it only wavers. Therefore you have to assault the building to take it.

Also I know buildings can only be small but a 12 MU building is an enormous area that only takes one unit. It may be wise to limit their size to more like 6-8 MU. Although a 12 MU building could take a huge amount of fire.

[hazelbark]

Another point. p 77 When occupying...3rd bullet.

What does this allow? I see it disallows an obstacle POA. But what does cover do in close combat?

[deadtorius]

P77, bullet about in cover if you look at the combat chart you will see that mounted fighting infantry not in square, or artillery and they are in cover do not get a + POA versus the infantry or artillery.

So another reason not to charge your mounted into a unit of foot or guns occupying a building. Not that I would have thought about such a thing in the first place myself Seems kind of suicidal just considering it.

[deadtorius]

Had the same questions in a game today. Do I know you?

I am not certain we have ever met, I don't do tourneys at all just simple point games with Blathergut and a few local conventions in Southern Ontario that are close to home.

Great minds must get equally baffled

[Blathergut]

Am pondering hitting Historicon this summer. Might have the French ready in a small force of 28mm. Have to see if it happens if I can smuggle deadtorius across the border!

[hazelbark]

Am pondering hitting Historicon this summer. Might have the French ready in a small force of 28mm. Have to see if it happens if I can smuggle deadtorius across the border!

We'd love to see you. Saturday we have a FOG N day.

I am using my 25/28mm on 15mm widths. Let us know it you are coming.

The DBM guys up in Ontario have come down before.

We can load you up with Ancient on thursday. Renaissance on Friday and Napoleonics on Saturday. Then on sunday after 9+ games, you will have just enough grey matter follow the GPS route north.

Note this year its in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Approximately an extra two hours for you driving.

PS We can supply loaner armies if you need more.

[deadtorius]

15mm width must make for a tight fit. Guess you are only basing them 3 side since I doubt you will get a 4th 28mm on that narrow a base.

[hazelbark]

15mm width must make for a tight fit. Guess you are only basing them 3 side since I doubt you will get a 4th 28mm on that narrow a base.

I do 40mm deep. So its easy. I thought about 3 on a 30 mm deep but not much different. The width is easy btw.

[terrys]

But 2 infantry at close range and an artillery battery at medium was still hugely effecting needs 5s or 6s respectively. Even limiting each to 4 dice plus artillery attachments (each infantry had one). Once the firing began at close range the massive number of hits created the drop two levels from firing. It becomes a death trap very rapidly.

The artillery should be hitting on 6's.
On average you should be getting 3-4 hits, which as you say is enough for 1-2 cohesion losses per move
You had 3 units attacking a single (isolated) building. We don't want building to be citadels. Outnumbering the enemy 3:1 should be enough.

as for Hougemont - The French side of the buidling was covered by orchards which would:
a) Stop the French deploying artillery units against it.
b) Cause the French to be in skirmish formation - or to fire at least a cohesion level lower.

[hazelbark]

The artillery should be hitting on 6's.

They were but veteran and re-rolling 1 s.

On average you should be getting 3-4 hits, which as you say is enough for 1-2 cohesion losses per move
You had 3 units attacking a single (isolated) building. We don't want building to be citadels. Outnumbering the enemy 3:1 should be enough.

I agree with that.

as for Hougemont - The French side of the buidling was covered by orchards which would:
a) Stop the French deploying artillery units against it.
b) Cause the French to be in skirmish formation - or to fire at least a cohesion level lower.

I see a. But b is pretty minor if the orchard is rough. Then 4 dice become 3.