nikgaukroger wrote:At Kynoskephalae the breaking of the makedonian left wing was the real reason that the Romans could attack the rear of the right. It was only after this had happened that the un-named tribune led the 20 maniples to the final attack.
At Pydna it was the uneveness of the ground that disrupted the phalanx front, as ground is naturally uneven it is moot, IMO, as to whether any pushing back of the Roman line was a contributory factor here.
Back to Cannae I note that the usual way this is illustrated is the Carthaginian centre going from a convex to a concave formation which means that the ends of the line pretty much stay where they are - the African infantry still have to march up to the Roman flank and turn to move inwards. If this is a correct representation you don't actually need push backs to do the battle at all.
Two pints to make here.
Firstly, I don't really have a problem if, for convenience and simplicity of game play, you have decided not to model push back/follow up type events. However, I think you would be better served by simply stating you consider it an acceptable trade off in terms of accuracy rather than try to pretend that they didn't happen or weren't important.
Now, regards to history, lets look at some source material.
Firstly, Kynoskephalae.
Polybios 25.4 (
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/18*.html)
"Flamininus [the Roman commander], seeing that his men could not sustain the charge of the phalanx, but that since his left was being forced back, some of them having already perished and others retreating slowly........."
Polybios 26.3
"For noticing that the Macedonians under Philip [ie the Macedonian right] had advanced a long way in front of the rest, and were by their weight forcing back the Roman left, he [an unnamed Roman tribune] quitted those on the right, who were now clearly victorious, and wheeling his force [20 maniples] in the direction of the scene of combat and thus getting behind the Macedonians, he fell upon them in the rear."
Livy 33.9 (
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy33.html)
"....for [the Macedonians] in following their repulsed enemy down the hill they had left the height for the enemy to make use of in his enveloping movement [by the tribune and his 20 maniples]. Assailed on both sides they lost heavily, and in a short time they flung away their arms and took to flight."
Seems fairly clear from the above that the Roman left WAS driven back quite a distance (Livy even suggests off the hill and on to the flat). The Romans were never fleeing but kept fighting while giving ground.
Now Pydna. Plutarch - Aemilius Paullus 20.5-6 (
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... lius*.html)
"When the first line had thus been cut to pieces, those arrayed behind them were beaten back; and though there was no flight, still they retired towards the mountain called Olocrus, so that even Aemilius, as Poseidonius tells us, when he saw it, rent his garments. For this part of his army was retreating........."
Again, fairly clear indications that the Romans were initially going backwards in the face of the phalanx.
Now Cannae:
Livy 22.47 (
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy22.html)
"As the latter [Hannibal's Gauls & Spainiards] fell back the whole front became level, and as they continued to give ground it became concave and crescent-shaped, the Africans at either end forming the horns. As the Romans rushed on incautiously between them, they were enfiladed by the two wings, which extended and closed round them in the rear."
So here we have the Romans pushing forwards between the 'horns' formed by the Africans. No reference to any advance by the Africans themselves.
Even more clear is Polybios 3.115 (
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... us/3*.html)
"The Romans, however, following up the Celts and pressing on to the centre and that part of the enemy's line which was giving way, progressed so far that they now had the heavy-armed Africans on both of their flanks. Hereupon the Africans on the right wing facing to the left and then beginning from the right charged upon the enemy's flank, while those on the left faced to the right and dressing by the left, did the same, the situation itself indicating to them how to act. The consequence was that, as Hannibal had designed, the Romans, straying too far in pursuit of the Celts, were caught between the two divisions of the enemy....."
So, sorry, push back and follow ups did happen and were significant not only at Cannae but elsewhere. As I said earlier, by all means make a decision not to model them on the basis of convenience and simplicity. But trying to justify this decision from any position of historical accuracy really just doesn't stack up
cheers
Benny
, yes we are told Aemillius was not already 'on the spot' as his next action is to 'come up quickly'. Subject checking to the actual Greek, the translation clearly suggests he initially saw events from a distance and then rushed over to manage the situation.